Overcoming Impossible Circumstances | Episode #7

Episode 7

Overcoming Impossible Circumstances

Jennifer & Ashley Zuckerman have lived lives of overcoming impossible circumstances. Now seniors in High School, these fraternal twins were born 28 weeks premature with less than a 25% chance of survival. This was the first of many challenges that Jennifer, Ashly, and their family would face together.

Due to Jennifer's premature birth, she developed retinopathy of prematurity (ROP), yet her sister Ashley had relatively normal eyesight. And that's how their story starts - one sighted sister and one blind sister. Despite this challenge, a beautiful relationship emerged that is a shining example for all siblings from all walks of life.

This interview between the Zuckerman sisters and the PRRF will have you laughing, crying, and perhaps rethinking your perspective on interacting with the visually impaired and anyone with a disability.

  • 0:00:02.4 Luisa Recchia: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the PRRF Through Our Eyes podcast. Today, we are talking to Jennifer and Ashley Zuckerman. These two young ladies are fraternal twins from Louisiana. They're seniors in high school. I hope that you enjoy this very compelling story about two young ladies who have grown up together, walked through school, gone through the years of high school together, and are now going to approach college, the first time in their life where they may be going separate ways. I welcome you to listen to Jennifer, and her story, along with her sister, Ashley. On that note, Jennifer, take it away.

    0:00:45.2 Jennifer Zuckeman: All right. Hi, everyone. My name is Jennifer Zuckerman, and this is my sister, Ashley. We're twins, as you might have all guessed. We are fraternal, by the way. Everyone always seems to want to know that. We are seniors in high school. We actually turned 18 just last week, so that was exciting. We're from Mandeville, Louisiana, which is about an hour from New Orleans. And it's important to note that we don't have any older or younger siblings. It's just the two of us. And honestly, I would never wish for any sibling other than my twin sister.

    0:01:27.8 JZ: We have such a special connection, such a special bond, and that's what I wanted to talk about this evening. So some background about us. Ashley and I were born premature, 28 weeks to be exact. I was two pounds, seven ounces, and Ashley was one pound, eight ounces. I have these numbers memorized because our mom likes to tell us often. Everyone seems, everyone's always so surprised about this, "oh, you're so small, you were born so early." But, we, it's really, it's common for multiples to be born early. Ashley and I were just an extreme case. We were, of course, under close supervision for months in the hospital, but no one could have foreseen the kind of complications that I would experience with my vision. Because of my premature birth, I soon developed retinopathy of prematurity or ROP and then began this years long process of trying to save the vision that I might have. I mean, it wasn't really clear in the beginning how much vision I would have, but now I have about 20/300 vision in both eyes after correction. Ashley also underwent surgeries, but they weren't as involved and her case wasn't as severe.

    0:03:01.6 JZ: And now, compared to me, she has relatively excellent vision. You would consider her fully-sighted, whereas I'm considered partially-sighted. So I guess I wanted to put into perspective what I can see for you guys. I can see the screen on my iPad well enough right now, but if I wanted to open up the chat and read some messages, I would have to zoom in pretty close to be able to read the text. Anyway, I'm, of course, here to talk about me and Ashley. She's the one person whom I feel truly understands the challenges that I face, even honestly, even more so than my parents. I want to give some small disclaimers though. Ashley and I are the same gender and the same age. So you might say that we have some sort of advantage over other siblings, you know, when it comes to relating to and understanding one another. It's easier for us since naturally, since we are the same gender and the same age.

    0:04:13.1 JZ: And also, because my visual impairment constitutes the extent of my disabilities, I also have a certain advantage over some other visually-impaired siblings when the visually-impaired sibling might also have, for example, communication issues, any other issues that can arise from premature birth or something along those lines.

    0:04:44.1 JZ: So I have none of that. And also, I'm partially-sighted. So again, it's easier for me and Ashley to communicate and relate with one another than it might be for other siblings. That being said, I still feel, I mean, I hope that I can speak to all the siblings out there who do struggle with something similar, who share a similar situation to me and Ashley.

    0:05:16.4 JZ: If I stop to think about how Ashley and I became so close, the first thing that comes to mind is our parents. In the article that I wrote for the September edition of Sightlines, I did describe how our parents encouraged us to work for the same goals and participate in the same activities. You know, it might be somewhat surprising to hear an 18-year-old girl talking about how much she appreciates what her parents did for her 10 years ago. But I truly believe that Ashley and I would not be so close without our parents' encouragement. I can't remember a time when they told me that I couldn't do something that Ashley could do simply because I was visually-impaired. If I think back to even first grade, I remember taking violin lessons with Ashley. That was one of the first extracurriculars that I did, that and dance.

    0:06:18.5 JZ: We were both learning the same music and doing the same things, even though it was particularly cumbersome for me because my sheet music was 32 point font, in order for me to be able to stand a decent distance away to hold the violin and read the music at the same time. So it wasn't, it didn't come as easily as it might have for Ashley in the beginning. But my... Our parents never said, "Oh, it'll be too difficult. You should try something else." They still encouraged me to learn the violin just like they encouraged Ashley.

    0:06:55.6 JZ: And you could say similarly, we both took dance classes since we were in preschool. And again, I was presented with certain challenges that Ashley wasn't. I had to be close to the front of the room to see what the dance instructor was doing. And then being on stage with a bunch of other girls presented a bit of a problem since my depth perception is impaired. But still, I was encouraged to take dance classes for years. Ashley and I both took them for 10 years or so. Yeah.

    0:07:36.3 JZ: And so I think I think also this translates into school really, of course, in the same way that our parents encouraged me to do the same extracurriculars as Ashley was encouraged to do. They, of course, did everything to ensure that I had all the necessary resources at my disposal to succeed academically. And it was because of this that I was able to work toward all the same academic goals that Ashley could. I've always been expected to work just as hard at school as Ashley was. And though my visual impairment possessed the potential to make this more difficult, I was certainly never allowed to use it as an excuse. Truly, there really was nothing that Ashley could do that I was told that I couldn't do even if I know now that I really couldn't do it. I remember when we were younger, we were kids with wild, crazy dreams. And so when I was asked by my parents what I wanted to be when I grew up, I said I wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon.

    0:09:01.5 JZ: Believe me, I have no idea why that's what I wanted to do, but it was actually. Ashley, on the other hand, wanted to be a paleontologist. And that's interesting because she's actually still interested in archaeology. Me, no, I'm not going to med school. I'm going to be a music major. But the interesting part is that obviously I know now that I could never be any sort of surgeon. But then when I was younger, our parents encouraged both of us to pursue these crazy dreams. And they never said, "Jennifer, you you won't be able to do that." They encouraged it. And for that, I am so grateful. I mean, because of this, as a child, I obviously didn't know. I didn't completely understand my limitations, or at least I didn't understand how they might affect my future. And neither did Ashley really. So the fact that I was always encouraged to do the things that she was encouraged to do, I think that helped Ashley to see me more as she would any other sister.

    0:10:19.9 JZ: Instead of seeing me as a sister who's different, who's visually impaired, who can't do all the things that she can or who needs extra help, she saw me as any kind of... She saw me as a sister who didn't need help all the time, who wasn't completely different from her. We were very similar. As I said, we did everything together, and back to school, we were in all the same classes, and we learned the same things. We learned the same way. And particularly important was the fact that we had the same friends whom we spent all our time with. We spent time with them together. And so I think it's partly because of this, that Ashley and I grew so close. Because our parents didn't separate us because they never worked. Because they worked so hard to ensure that both of us felt that I was just like Ashley, or as much like Ashley as I could be. And that I was just as capable as Ashley. We never had a chance to feel different from one another. We never had any reason to feel different.

    0:11:44.0 JZ: This brings me to the next point that I wanted to make. I know that it's a primary concern of anyone with any sort of disability to adapt to the world of non-disabled people. And in my case, it's my primary concern to adapt to the world of sighted people. And one of the reasons that I feel that I've done this successfully is because of Ashley. Because she's never treated me differently than she would a sister who didn't have some sort of disability. I mean, perhaps this is because of my parents treating both of us in the same way as I talked about, or perhaps it's simply because as children, neither of us truly understood my disability. And Ashley could really do nothing but treat me normally. But the fact that Ashley did treat me normally, both at home and especially at school, when we were around other students our age, this is what ultimately encouraged others, all those other students, our peers, all the other girls at school, it's what encouraged them to treat me in the same way, in the way that Ashley treated me. I mean, for obvious reasons, other kids might have related more to Ashley than they did to me, or they might have perceived me as different somehow because of my large print textbooks and my large papers and the magnifiers that I would use. It was perfectly reasonable for them to perceive me as different.

    0:13:25.6 JZ: But I think because Ashley never treated me any differently at school than she did any of the other students, none of the kids treated me any differently either. I mean, Ashley was essentially an example for the other students. She made me look and feel normal. And it was... And so her presence allowed all the other kids to in turn view me as she did, as normal. So in this sense, Ashley was my connection to the sighted world, you might say. Without her, I probably would have had, well, I could have had a more isolated life than what I do now because she was the person who connected me socially to the other students my age. So the connections that Ashley helped me build and the interactions that she helped me experience as a child are to this day proving invaluable. I think that I'm better adapted to the world today than I would be had I not had Ashley's help and support throughout my childhood. Ashley and I, as I said, were seniors in high school, so we'll be going to college in less than a year. Not terrifying at all.

    [chuckle]

    0:15:01.1 JZ: Yeah, as you can imagine, this is a daunting idea for both of us. And for me, especially because of my visual impairment, new environments with new people aren't exactly a source of comfort for anyone with any sort of disability. And the situation is exacerbated by the fact that I may not be attending the same school as Ashley. There's still a distinct possibility that we end up at LSU together, but we're also both looking at out-of-state schools. So, I might end up in Texas and Ashley in Georgia. There's a possibility that we will be very far away from one another. So this is certainly going to take a great deal of self-reliance on both of us. On my part because of my visual impairment and on Ashley's because, well, she's also living independently for the first time. But I do know that no matter where we end up, I will always be able to call Ashley and ask her for help if I need it.

    0:16:13.3 JZ: This obviously won't do much good in practical everyday situations. In those situations, I will have to ask others for help. But in terms of the kind of support that we offer each other as twin sisters, it really, I know it won't matter where we are. As Ashley has told me so many times, I can always depend on her. And as I hope she knows, she can always depend on me. So I've talked a lot, I've said a lot about me and Ashley. But I wanted Ashley to share her side of the story too because this is about both of us, not just me. And she has a perspective that's both similar and different to mine. So I will let Ashley go ahead now.

    0:17:11.5 Ashley Zuckerman: Hi everyone. My name is Ashley. I'm Jennifer's twin sister. When I heard that Jennifer was participating in this workshop, I really wanted to join because I feel strongly about the information that she's sharing. And I want to share my experiences as well. I certainly had a unique childhood growing up with a sister who is visually impaired. But as Jennifer has already touched on many times, I didn't feel that our situation was unique at the time. Growing up, I certainly understood that Jennifer's vision was physically different than others and that she could not see the things I could.

    0:17:54.0 AZ: But I didn't see it as something that made her different than me in other regards. We were constantly together in and outside of school. And it was just difficult for me to focus on Jennifer's limitations. There are so many things that we could do together. In terms of responsibility and the responsibility that I felt growing up, I will say that I didn't view it as a responsibility, as a chore that I was required to do for my parents. I simply viewed it as taking care of my sister. It was instinctive, making sure that she always had what she needed or that she was always with me, or that she didn't feel left out in any situation or that she was comfortable in any new or unfamiliar situations. I honestly don't even think my parents encouraged this kind of behavior. They never really said, "make sure you stay with your sister, Ashley." At least I don't remember them saying that. But Jennifer and I were just so close and we still are best friends now. And it has always been in my nature to want to spend time together. In fact, I remember two stories. Somehow they were both in fourth grade.

    0:19:24.0 AZ: First story, Jennifer and I were going to the movies with a big group of girls for a birthday party. And as we were heading to our theater, some of the girls started running ahead. And Jennifer ran with them, but I chose to stay back and walk. Well, when I got halfway up the stairs to our row in the theater, I realized that Jennifer wasn't with the group. And I started freaking out and I ran out of the theater to look for her. But it turned out that she was running. When she was running, she actually followed a woman who she thought was one of the parents into the wrong theater. And she realized that though, and she was waiting outside theater when I went to look for her. So everything turned out fine.

    0:20:13.9 AZ: But I still remember, I still remember the feeling, I still remember feeling guilty. Like I had done something wrong. I felt bad that I wasn't there for her. Even though she was the one running ahead. But I felt that it was my fault and that I should have run with her, ran with her. Then there was a time when I got truly upset because a teacher basically told me that I shouldn't be helping Jennifer.

    0:20:49.5 AZ: We were in computer lab and Jennifer was sitting next to me as she always did. And the teacher told us to click on an icon and Jennifer understandably had trouble locating it on the computer screen. So she asked me for help. Well, I pointed to the icon and showed her where it was, I would have done anyway. And not a second later, this teacher came rushing over and started yelling at me. Well, maybe she wasn't yelling at me, but I was 10 years old and she was pretty frightening. Anyway, she was lecturing me on the fact that I wouldn't always be there to help Jen in every situation and that I should let her figure things out for herself instead of helping her all the time. And this idea was just so appalling to me. I was so upset. I started bawling right there in front of all the other students. I just, I couldn't believe that someone would suggest that I wouldn't always be there to help Jen or that there would come a time when she should no longer ask for my help. And as I said a million times before, I will always be there for her no matter what, no matter where I am.

    0:22:05.3 AZ: Anyway, that leads me to our current situation. We're going off to college in a year and as Jennifer has said, we may very well go to different schools. Still, I've told Jen many times that no matter where we go to school, I will always find a way to help her should she need it. I will always be willing to help her, no matter how far apart we are. And I think that's the special part about being twins. I know that some people's situations are different than ours and it's in part our circumstances that have allowed us to become so close. But if there's one thing that I would wish for siblings like me and Jen, it would be that they can develop the sense of understanding that Jen and I share. I feel that this is what has helped us both succeed. And Jennifer is someone who is visually-impaired and me as a twin sister.

    0:23:16.9 JZ: Well, that is everything that we plan to talk about. So we'll go ahead and open this up to the group for any questions. Feel free to ask questions or if you have any comments or stories. I'm sure everyone here can benefit from different perspectives.

    0:23:38.0 Don: So first of all, what a remarkably poignant story. And I'm really struck by how sort of wonderfully you both articulated it. It's really fabulous. One of the things that... A theme that comes up over and over again for folks who have some measure of visual impairment and yet succeed academically is, as you've repeatedly stated, both of you, Ashley and Jennifer, is the importance of support from parents and family. And it's so clearly articulated that I almost wonder about how difficult it must be for folks who are visually-impaired and don't have that kind of parental support in terms of negotiating the world. It's the critical thing, it seems, for a visually-impaired kid to become a visually-impaired adult in a sort of happy and actualized way. So that's just kind of a comment. It really rings through here. Ashley, I'm curious. I know Jennifer's interest is in music. What's your interest in?

    0:24:56.4 AZ: Well, I want to be an elementary teacher.

    0:25:00.2 Don: Clearly, you have all the empathetic tools to do a great job at that.

    0:25:03.2 AZ: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

    0:25:09.0 JZ: Absolutely. I completely agree with everything you said. I mean, really, I don't think I would be where I am today without the support that I got from my parents and in all the ways that I was encouraged to perform just as well as Ashley did academically, especially, as I said, I was never allowed to use my visual impairment as an excuse. So I never did. It really just became my motivation instead of my limitation. It became something that I said, "well, everyone else thinks this might be a limitation. I'm going to show them how it's not." And that's what motivated me to do well. And of course, that was only attainable with the support that I got from my family. Absolutely.

    0:26:05.2 Don: I love the story where you're the one who ran ahead.

    0:26:07.5 JZ: Yeah.

    0:26:11.1 Don: Everybody else's notion would be that, she would run ahead and leave you behind, instead you're the one who runs ahead of your sister.

    0:26:16.2 AZ: Yeah, she left me.

    0:26:18.1 JZ: Yeah, that was me in middle school.

    [laughter]

    0:26:24.5 Don: One of the things I'd love to hear you talk about, Jennifer, so obviously, if whether you go to the same school or different schools, I think I've chatted a little bit with you about this, when you've come up, I have a number of other kids who are about your age who are going to school. Tell me a little bit about how you're thinking about, other than with a nice, healthy measure of trepidation, the notion of living independently. How are you getting your head around that? As you look at going to school, what are the steps that you're looking to take to make it so that you're going to be successful living independently? Since you're sighted, but obviously not to the same degree as everybody else, the dorm, going to the lunch hall, figuring out your way around, what's going on in your mind as you're looking at this in the future?

    0:27:19.5 JZ: Well, I, my primary concern right now is, since I can't drive, it's making sure that I am going to be at a school where I can get around easily. I remember we toured Vanderbilt in Nashville, and we spent about an hour walking... After the tour, we walked the campus and the surrounding area because the music school is a few blocks into Nashville, separate from the campus. So I had a paper map, which I have never used before. I had a paper map in my phone to zoom in so I could read it. And I was trying to navigate through Nashville, that... I mean, and so yeah, that was interesting. But I did it. And in the end, I was leading my dad around the Vanderbilt campus because I had kind of figured out where I was going, somehow. But that's, I would say that's my primary concern right now making sure that the campus is relatively easy for me to figure out, easy for me to get around. And I think that mean, that's what I've done my entire life, in terms of navigating new schools, I go and memorize where I have to be all the time.

    0:28:44.2 JZ: And let's see, I am not, I'm honestly not sure. Other than that, it's just going to take a lot of self-advocacy, because I know that there's no IEP, or it's not like you have the parish to provide everything that you need in schools. So it's going to be me communicating with professors in order to ensure that I can get what I need in order to be successful.

    0:29:24.8 Jill: I was gonna let you know, Jennifer, not to interrupt you, but Ruby, I'm Ruby's mom, I think you met Ruby...

    0:29:31.0 JZ: Yeah.

    0:29:31.0 Jill: A while back. She is at Sarah Lawrence in New York. So I just wanted to relieve your fear. If you do choose to go off to school away from your twin. Obviously, her concern also was trying to get around. And so she did visit all schools of different sizes. And she saw the difference in where she could get around and decided on a smaller school. She's an art major, but she is doing incredible and she is alone. She's in New York City. So it is very doable. She has met 1000 friends it is, it was totally different than high school. Much more accepting.

    0:30:20.0 Jill: For some reason, the students then being in my school. And her vision is not even an issue with anyone there that she has met. She has to meet with her teachers. Oddly enough her being an art major with her vision. She did have to work with her professors as far as designing, some of these courses a little bit more specific to her. They had to just tweak it just a little bit. But she's learning to do that on her own. And so it has been amazing to sit back and listen to her stories each night, the accomplishments that she has done at school alone as a freshman, which I never imagined as a parent with a daughter of ROP that this day would ever come or how it would come and the fear that we had and it's been a beautiful experience and you will do it. If you do go off, you will be just fine, just fine.

    0:31:25.9 JZ: You have no idea how relieving that is to hear to because I know I know Ruby and to hear about her success living in New York City, her freshman year, that's that's wonderful.

    0:31:41.2 Jill: It's hard for me to hear it.

    0:31:41.5 JZ: Yeah. Yeah. Our mom is sitting in here listening too. I bet she's just as relieved...

    0:31:50.0 Mom: Definitely.

    0:31:52.2 Alyssa: As I am because I'm over here looking at Houston and Chicago.

    0:31:56.2 Jill: No, it's actually been, this is the happiest I have ever seen her in my life. So there's a lot to be said about that. And I think the school had a lot to do with it because it is a smaller school, but she knows her way around perfectly. And if I could just keep her in the dorm a little bit more, but she's out and about all the time. It would be a good thing, but she is loving it.

    0:32:22.9 JZ: That's wonderful.

    0:32:25.5 Jill: So heartwarming for us.

    0:32:25.7 JZ: Yeah.

    0:32:29.8 Jill: So heartwarming for us to be able to sleep at night and not worry. Now, she's not gone into New York yet with all of her friends. But that's another discussion. But she's knows to be careful if that's the case, but she's made some really close friends from all over the country, all over the world, really. And so far, it's just not an issue. And I think she trusts who she's met. So when that day comes that she does go into New York on the train, it will be fine. We go up for parents weekend in about two weeks. So we'll get to see her and kind of how she functions at school and how she's made it work for her.

    0:33:10.8 Jill: But the hardest part was to make that initial step to talk to the teacher about changing the class that really worried her and didn't sit well with her. She didn't want to be any different, but she knew she had to do it in order to be an art major. She had to do it. And the teachers worked with her as if it was just another day. It was no problem. So that's, but she'll have to do this with every professor that she's got. So she'll get into the habit of where it's not so intimidating to her to have to speak to these professors about tweaking the class a little bit for her. But she's loving it.

    0:33:56.2 JZ: It's a relief to hear that the professors have been open to changing things to accommodate her. So that's really nice to hear.

    0:34:06.1 Jill: Yeah, my sister works for Tulane. She said there's going to come a day where there's going to be a professor that's not going to work with her and to go ahead and let her know that day will come. Hopefully, maybe it will not, but she sees it a lot from time to time. Ruby joined the, there's a disability group like a club at the school that she went ahead and joined and was trying to run herself the whole bit. And she's accepting everything and embracing it. And it gives her more confidence when she's talking to these professors. So hopefully that day won't happen. But so far, so good.

    0:34:49.6 Don: I'm just going to make a brief comment. One of our... One of the members of our community Brandon Warner, who you'll hear if you listen on the webcast, the podcast that will be out day after tomorrow. Alyssa?

    0:35:04.8 Alyssa: Yes, Thursday.

    0:35:06.9 Don: One of the things he talks... He's about 10 years ahead of you guys. And one of the things that he emphasized in a workshop that he did in the Family Advisory Council was and I was struck by this is something that is a bit unique to your all circumstances, the importance of forming relationships with the teachers, really going out of your way to form relationships with your teachers, that they can be your best advocates and your best allies. And most of us when we think about networking don't necessarily think about relying that heavily on teachers. And Brandon made the point that it was absolutely critical. So I think this is a really valuable nugget to share, and Jill, thank you for bringing that up, because it reminds me of what Brandon mentioned in that regard. He said it was really critical to his career.

    0:35:57.6 Adam: Jennifer, I'm gonna have to quibble with one thing that you said, which is that your parents...

    0:36:01.2 JZ: Really?

    0:36:04.4 Adam: Yes. That your parents always encouraged both of you to do the same thing. I don't recall your sister being encouraged to partake in the surge, water slide in the [0:36:17.2] ____.

    [laughter]

    0:36:21.1 AZ: There is no way.

    [laughter]

    0:36:24.9 JZ: Okay, well, then in that case, I was encouraged to do something that Ashley wasn't encouraged to do.

    0:36:28.9 Adam: Exactly.

    0:36:30.9 JZ: I was encouraged to fall 60 feet. Thank you for that. Everyone needed to know about that.

    [laughter]

    0:36:47.7 S8: I was gonna just say real quick that, and of course, Jennifer covered it well about being a self-advocate. And what we found with my son Colin, when he first started his freshman year at college is, he really didn't advocate that much in high school, whereas the IEP, it just happened. He went to class and teachers knew about it. And they made the accommodations in college, he found it to be very different where he had to go and see each teacher and every college pretty much should have it and it's a different name for each college, but either a disability office or an accommodations office, something like that at each college. And we found that it was good to go there right before the semester started and meet with that office, get that letter of accommodations, and take it to each and every teacher. And if you do that in the beginning, like during your orientation, we found that was very helpful for him to, get in with a teacher, same thing like Dr. Capone was saying, getting with a teacher, talk to that teacher, and come to an agreement on what the list of accommodations, how could that best be applied to that particular class.

    0:37:56.0 S8: So that worked out well. We found it worked very well if you did it in the beginning and not so well if you waited until like the third week of the class to go tell the teacher. So I guess that was a little nugget that we learned that I felt like I should share.

    0:38:11.1 Alyssa: Yeah, I mean, that's the first question that comes to my mind. So maybe somebody on the call can answer it. When do you start encouraging them to advocate for themselves to get them started as opposed to waiting for college?

    0:38:26.3 Jill: Our approach was different than probably anybody else that's here. As the Zuckerman's know, the Louisiana school system is probably not the best. The area that they're in actually has some great, great public schools. Where I am, unfortunately, the public school system is not so good. So we really, Ruby was in private school, we made our way through year after year after year meeting with teachers prior to school starting and Ruby learning her way around when maybe she went from lower school to high school and learned at school, how to get around, but we had to do it every year. So she learned at a very young age how to advocate for herself because they didn't know how to teach her. So we had to teach them how to teach her. So it was a different pace for us.

    0:39:22.8 S8: I think I would add in, it's never too soon to help starting to teach your kid how to advocate. I think Don and I would agree that we started it probably in high school and we feel looking back now, we might have started a little bit too late because as I was explaining to Colin that, "you have to be the one to go and talk to the teacher. Well, that's not cool. I don't want to talk to the teacher. Well, the teacher needs to understand how to help you so that you can learn on the same level as your peers." And he always looked at it as if he was getting special treatment. I'm like, "no, you're just getting brought up to the same level as those who have full sight." And so teaching him to advocate for himself, again, I feel like sometimes maybe we waited too long and we wish maybe we would have started back earlier, like in middle school or even before that, and each kid with a different personality takes a different style, I think as well.

    0:40:17.1 Alyssa: Thank you. And thank you for taking the time to be with us. We always learn from one another, can never know enough. And I know we've got folks on the line that have little ones. So I think I'm hoping this is very powerful for you guys to know or give you some encouragement as the little ones become young adults. So we've got about six minutes and I'd love to hear from those who haven't shared yet if you'd like to share. And while you're thinking, let me ask you, Jennifer, or Ashley, is there anything you think your parents could have done differently in raising you?

    0:41:09.5 JZ: I don't think so. I mean, actually I think the point is that they didn't, well, they did, as I've said, they encouraged us to do all the same things and achieve the same goals, but they didn't do, they didn't do anything that any other parents shouldn't do. They raised us both just as they would two fully-sighted twins. And so that's, no, I don't think that they could have done anything differently because they didn't need to do anything other than give me the support that I needed while at the same time, not overdoing it to the point where I was only ever focused on the fact that I needed help, or what do you think? I mean...

    0:42:05.4 AZ: I completely agree. I think the point is, like you said, they didn't, they didn't do anything differently than any other parent would. So it helped me understand that their view of Jennifer is same as I was. I never saw her, I just saw her as my sister, as my twin, my best friend.

    0:42:32.6 Alyssa: Beautiful. How do you guys, how do you plan to stay in touch with each other during college? I mean, I know we have these wonderful phones, but how will you, does texting work? I don't know.

    0:42:45.3 AZ: I'm sure I'll be FaceTiming Jennifer every night.

    0:42:46.3 Alyssa: Ah, okay.

    0:42:49.8 JZ: She'll probably FaceTime, and I'll be like, I'm practicing for this performance. Like, will you give me two minutes?

    [laughter]

    0:43:00.3 JZ: No, I'm sure it'll be, if there's anyone that I want to stay in touch with that I want to talk to every day, it's Ashley. I mean, because we talk to each other every day now. So I don't want it to be any different.

    0:43:10.4 AZ: I couldn't have said it better.

    0:43:12.8 Don: I have a quick question for Adam and Jill. So the approach that the gals have described that you guys took, was it a deliberate one? Guys, I mean, did you sit together and talk and say, "we're going to raise these two gals and treat them precisely the same way?" Or is it just kind of the way it evolved that they were twins and it just, you're going to treat them the same?

    0:43:38.6 Mom: I think for me, it just evolved. It was just making sure that neither one of them felt like they were any different than anybody else around. I don't know if Adam would agree or have something different to say.

    0:43:52.7 Adam: Credit to three of you. I don't know what else to say.

    0:44:00.5 JZ: You don't have anything to say? You don't have...

    0:44:02.8 Adam: Believe it or not, Jennifer.

    0:44:07.5 JZ: He's outnumbered.

    [laughter]

    0:44:10.2 Adam: That's why I'm still at the office.

    [laughter]

    0:44:17.4 Don: But he's smiling. He's happy.

    0:44:18.6 JZ: Yeah.

    0:44:20.3 Adam: But Jill, I do have a question for you. How has Ruby found traveling to New York?

    0:44:27.6 Mom: That has been a little bit, well, let me back up for a second. She did have an eye infection last week and instead of, I guess, I was just concerned. So I got on a plane and flew there and got her in to a physician and got what we needed to do. Now, fall break is coming up and I will admit, Paul, my husband is flying up to get her on Thursday and flying back with her that night. And then the same to take her back to school. And then I will meet them for parents weekend. But it's only because it's the first time. And on this first trip that we're doing this while we're there for parents weekend, we are going to do the train route with her and do all of the airport, what you would have to do with her. And we're going to see what, how comfortable she is and what she can do. If we have to get Delta involved to meet her at a certain point, whatever it may be, but this is going to be our test, our test week of how she can do this on her own, because we can't do this, it's so many flights.

    0:45:51.3 Mom: So we're going to try and figure it out. I do have a friend that lives in New York. So I was even trying to arrange where if there's a certain driver that they use that can pick her up at Sarah Lawrence and take her to the airport or if she can do it by train, that would be great. But it's just navigating that one step from getting off the train and getting to the airport, inside the airport and learning her way around there. She assures me she can do it on her own. I need to see it myself that she can do it. And once I see that she can do it, I will be fine. We did, she went to Europe this summer. I mean, this school year with a bunch of friends, the school trip, and she did fine, but she had a group with her. So I need to see, you can do it alone and how she maneuvers through the airport by herself before I'm going to let her do it. But this we're about, we're about to go through that now and I'll keep you posted...

    0:46:53.3 Don: Thank you for sharing.

    0:46:53.4 Mom: On how we do that.

    0:46:56.5 Alyssa: Jennifer and Ashley, my heart just, you're, you're beautiful young ladies and I feel privileged to have ever met you. And your parents are just awesome. So as I know all the other parents on the call are as well, but it's so wonderful to hear your story and hope to, hope that you'll remember me when you become famous singing on stage.

    0:47:29.3 JZ: Absolutely.

    [laughter]

    0:47:33.9 Alyssa: And Jill, yeah whenever your daughter's ready, we're ready to host her as well.

    0:47:41.3 Mom: I'll definitely let her know.

    0:47:43.6 Alyssa: And Chuck and Donna and Lisa, all of you, anybody, please reach out and we welcome you guys. I think we need to let the world know the challenges that are out there and that the schools are not aware of, or I mean, they need to become more aware of what's going on and be able to help us to help these children advocate and help advocate for them as teachers.

    0:48:11.0 Dr. Droste: The podcast is called Through Our Eyes. Make sure to like and follow our Discord channel, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok, and let us know if you have any questions or have a topic you would like us to cover. We have tremendous things planned and we hope you tune in again for our next podcast. This is Dr. Droste saying good night to all of you on behalf of our staff, the PRRF. Thank you.