What Happens When You Aim High? | Episode #8

Episode 8

What Happens When You Aim High?

“…For most of us, our problem is not that we can’t see. No, the problem is that society holds low expectations of us as blind people… there’s so much in the world that is inaccessible, but we’re capable of so much when we know that we can do it and when we have a team of people to support us….”

This quote is from Amy Albin, who was born with Leber’s congenital amaurosis, an eye disorder that primarily affects the retina that rendered Amy blind from birth.  Amy is now getting ready to graduate college and enter the workforce. In this episode, Amy tells the fantastic story of navigating life and how others in similar scenarios can do the same.

Show Notes:

Amy talks about her involvement with the National Federation for the Blind. She also references the JAWS screen reader, the AIRA visual interpreting service, and Be My Eyes.

When Amy was an intern at gothamCulture she published this article on their website “Disability Inclusion at Work: From the Perspective of a Blind Professional.

  • 0:00:16.7 Nicole Giudci: So thank you, Amy, for joining us today. And let's start our podcast off by asking you to tell us your story. What's your background with regards to your visual impairment?

    0:00:29.1 Amy Albin: So, first of all, Nicole and everyone, I want to thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to share my story and to hopefully help some blind, visually impaired people down the road. I was born totally blind. I was diagnosed with Leber's congenital amaurosis about the age of six months old, or thereabouts. I am the only one in my family to be blind, so I didn't really grow up with a whole bunch of blind role models. I went to public school, I had an aide in the public school, I had a teacher for visually impaired, which they called TVIs, who taught me braille and other things like that. And it wasn't until I got into high school and started getting involved with the National Federation of the Blind, NFB, that I really started to... I had met other blind people at camps, but it wasn't until I joined the NFB and got involved with them that I really started to develop my philosophy around blindness.

    0:01:46.4 Amy: And the National Federation of the Blind, we do a lot of advocacy work on behalf of blind people, and the biggest thing that I've learned from being involved in that organization is that for most of us, our problem is not that we can't see. No, the problem is that society holds low expectations of us as blind people. And when I say blind, I mean blind, visually impaired, totally blind, it doesn't matter, I'm gonna say blind to refer to all of them. But society holds such low expectations of us as blind people, and there's so much in the world that is inaccessible, but we're capable of so much when we know that we can do it, and when we have a team of people to support us.

    0:02:48.8 Nicole: That's so interesting, and I can see how that's actually true of society. So tell us, what was your biggest challenge, either through high school or transitioning to undergrad and then transitioning to graduate school?

    0:03:05.1 Breyanna Willitt: I just have a quick question before we move on. So what exactly is your disease? I've never heard of it before, so kind of what is the dumbed-down version, I guess?

    0:03:12.4 Amy: Okay. So it's a genetic condition. There's really not much else to say about it, also I'm not personally an expert in it. It's something to do with the retina not working correctly. So I just... I don't get the light or the picture, I have no light perception. So that's rare even among blind people. And there are several different... There is quite a number of different genes for Leber's congenital amaurosis, and it's funny because what they did with me is called a differential diagnosis. I guess they checked for all the other things, so we'd have the RP, glaucoma. They said, "It's not this. It's not that. It's not the other thing. Ah, it must be Leber's congenital amaurosis." So a process of elimination. But it's never... My eye condition has... I've never really focused on that. And a lot of people talk about finding a cure, that's not what I'm interested in, I'm just interested in living my life to the fullest now, and in the future.

    0:04:24.5 Nicole: Thank you so much.

    0:04:26.3 Amy: You're welcome.

    0:04:26.6 Nicole: So jumping back, tell us what were your biggest challenges with regards to navigating education?

    0:04:34.5 Amy: My biggest challenge. Well, through elementary school, high school, I read braille and I still read braille, but I use audio a lot more now, but the teachers... I had an aide who learned braille, but there were so many times that teachers didn't give her the things ahead of time... There were so many times that teachers did not give my aide the materials ahead of time to braille them so that I would go into class and have nothing or my teacher or aide would have to read to me while all the other students were reading for themselves. In gym class, a lot of times I was... While the other kids were playing games on teams, I was taken aside by a physical therapist because I also had low muscle tone issues. I don't know if those are related to the blindness, but anyway, while the other kids were playing soccer and dodgeball and forming those team relationships, I was by myself with the physical therapist, throwing a ball over and over and over. I was often not given the opportunity. The aides and the teachers would say, "Okay, hold my arm. You're gonna leave early for recess, early to lunch, early to the bus, cut in the lines," and it meant that I really didn't learn the school or the area.

    0:06:25.4 Amy: And so I've really started to kind of wise up to that when I was in high school for a while, about my junior year, after I had been involved with the National Federation of the Blind, and I said, "I'm about to go to college. And when I go to college, I'm not gonna have a one-to-one aide." So I want to... And I need to be walking the halls by myself, walking to the bus, walking to and from classes, lunch. And the child study team, the people who make the individualized education plan, said, "No, you cannot walk without an aide." And I said, "That's not right. I'm 17 years old, and you're saying that I can't walk the hall without an escort?" But that is what I was saying before. Even the people who specialize, who have master and doctorate degrees in educating students with disabilities, even they did not think that I was capable of walking to and from classes in a school hallway by myself. Sad, but it's the world we live in. So what did I do? I went to an IEP meeting, and I brought with me an advocate, someone who I had met from the NFB and someone who was a mentor to me, and I spoke up for myself, and she spoke up for me as well. And it was a hard battle, but I'm happy to say that by my senior year of high school, I was successfully walking the halls by myself, and I had learned the school, and I felt much more confident that I would be ready for college.

    0:08:41.0 Nicole: That is amazing. I wonder, what do you think, or how do you think things would have been different had the people in the school treated you the same as a sighted person from the very beginning and let you adapt much earlier on? Do you think that would have helped in a certain area? Do you think you would have felt more confident being ready to go to college? What do you think that would have done?

    0:09:09.8 Amy: Absolutely. So that is a very interesting question. And in my case, in particular, it was complicated because my aide was the same person from prior to... From before I went to kindergarten, all the way up until to the end of my senior year of high school. And so she knew me when I was five. And when I was five, I was a very stubborn kid. I had a lot of anxiety issues, maybe not even related to blindness, I had a lot of behavioral issues, and at that time, I really was not capable of integrating. But somewhere along the line, I grew up and somewhere along the line, people did not recognize that it was time to cut the strings, so to speak. I'll give you an example. When you think about waiting in line, it's something... And walking single-file lines, it's something that kids are taught to do from kindergarten. I was always allowed to grab someone's arm and go first in line, and so I never learned that skill.

    0:10:31.3 Amy: And so one day in sixth grade, we had something called the Teen Center, which was a building where the middle schoolers could go and there was a fridge and had snacks and ice cream and games and TV, and just a hangout spot, and I was really excited to go my first time. And there was a line to get in, and I had never learned the skill of how to walk in a line. 12 years old, and I had never learned the skill to walk in a line, so everyone was kept going in front of me, and eventually, I believe it was one of the parents who helped me. Now, I since have learned some techniques, for example, finding the person in front of me in line and either tapping their foot with my cane or asking them politely, "Hey, can you let me know when we're moving?" But back then, I didn't have that skill and I didn't advocate for myself. But I truly think that if walking in a line had been a skill that had been drilled into me from kindergarten, as it had been with all the other students, then I wouldn't have had that problem. So that's just an example.

    0:11:56.5 Breyanna: So how do you think that for educators and teachers and whoever else is listening in the school system, how do you think they... What do you think the best way to teach kids when they're young? Do you start them out by doing a sighted guide or holding on to an arm or something like that, and then slowly working them up? Or is it just like, "Okay, you go in, you tour the school for a day," and kinda go from there, especially when you get up to high school and stuff, where you're walking from class to class by yourself, kind of thing?

    0:12:28.6 Amy: Right. So, first of all, I know a lot of people in the NFB, they don't call it sighted guide, they call it human guide because the theory is that a blind person can guide another blind person too. So that's what I'm gonna call it. And I have found, this is just my experience, but I have found that whenever I do human guide, I don't retain the information, I don't retain the layout, I don't learn anything. Human guide is good for if you're with friends, if you're going to somewhere that you're never gonna be again, or if there's some kind of an emergency and you don't know where you're going. But I would say definitely you wanna give the kid a cane as early as possible. As soon as they can walk, you want to give them a cane and you want them to be walking with that cane and being instructed how to walk without a guide by themselves with the cane. A lot of... There are some instructors that will wait to give the child a cane, but the cane is how... It's a part of how we walk, and so I think it's really important.

    0:13:49.2 Amy: And if you talk to anyone in the NFB, they'll say the same thing. As soon as they start walking, give them a cane. And you know what? At the beginning, when I'm learning the school, I might be late for class. Being late for class is not the end of the world. It's more important to have that independence and to learn the layout, especially if it's a school that you're gonna be there for four years or six years, depending on... My middle school was three through eight, which is bizarre, but, yes.

    0:14:31.8 Nicole: I hear a common theme about gaining your independence as young as possible so that you're not reliant on other people as heavily and the consequences that this presents later in life for you. And one question I have for you around that is, how do you think that impacted your social development, making friends, social activities, things like that?

    0:14:56.9 Amy: That is such a good question, because I feel like walking around holding on to the arm of a lady all the time, didn't really help me make friends of my own age. It just didn't because people would be what I call fake nice, or maybe I could be a little bit more charitable, people would be polite to me. They would say, "Hi, Amy, how was your weekend? Are you having a good lunch? That's nice." And then they would leave me out of the real conversation that they were having with each other. And so making friends through elementary, middle, and high school was always very, very challenging for me. It wasn't until college, undergrad that I met someone my age that was a really good friend, and then in grad school, I have a lot of friends now in my grad school program. But back then, it was difficult. But I don't know how much of that is due to the lack of independence, and how much of it is due to people just not knowing how to interact with a blind person.

    0:16:30.0 Nicole: It's funny you should say that 'cause I was going to ask you next, what advice do you have, if you could tell all of the sighted people of the world how you want to be interacted with? How should they treat you? What's your advice for that?

    0:16:45.4 Amy: Okay. So I think a nice thing that a sighted person can do, if they want to meet me, they could walk up to me and say, "Hi, how are you? What's your name?" And I'll tell them, "My name is Amy," and then they could tell me their name, and then they could say whatever they want. "Nice weather. Did you like the movie we just watched? Hey, what are you doing this weekend?" So if you'll notice, my answer was the same answer that it would be if you asked, "How do you meet someone?" Here's what I would say is a no-no. Grabbing me, especially without my permission. People think they can do that. They think that they can help me by grabbing me. And we know, most people know that grabbing people is not okay, but for blind people, they think there is an exception. Well, guess what? There is not an exception. Another don't, guess who I am. Now, I'm not gonna guess who you are because being blind, it can be difficult to recognize people's voices. Imagine if you got a phone call from someone and they just asked you, "Guess who it is?"

    0:18:23.0 Amy: So it's really helpful when you talk to me to say, "Hi, this is Nicole," or "Hi, this is Brianna," or "Hi, this is Andrea," or "Hi, this is Luis." You know what I'm saying? Saying who you are. And please don't ask me, "Do you recognize my voice yet?" or "How many times do I need to say it to you?" Because, hey, some people's voices, I recognize, some people's, I don't. It has nothing to do with how much I like you. It's probably just more, just random factors. Some people's voices just sound more like other people's voices. So don't take it personally if I don't recognize your voice. And another thing is, I'm always happy to see people. Now, you don't need to say, "It's nice to see... Oh, I mean... Oh no, I said, 'See.' It's nice to talk to you." No, it's okay to say "see," it's a figure of speech. I say it all the time. Yeah, just don't be awkward, be yourself.

    0:19:41.8 Nicole: I'm laughing and you can't see me laughing, but I'm laughing because I was just about to ask you a question about some guilt that people who are sighted may have when they meet people who are not sighted, and then they choose to avoid you because they feel guilty that they can see and that you can't, and that it would be awkward to talk to you, or that it's uncomfortable for someone who's sighted to meet you and verbally describe something that's going on, or a scene or something that you can't see. Can you speak a little bit about that?

    0:20:21.7 Amy: Well, that's an interesting question because in all the years, I've never thought of that maybe the reason people avoid me is because they feel guilty, but I did have an experience. I was actually in a group at Montclair, my university, that not a therapy group per se, but it was a drop-in group run by one of the psychologist counselors, and it was on Zoom. And she said, "You know, Amy, I was gonna ask everyone to turn on their cameras. But then I thought that maybe that might not be fair because it's not fair to you, because you can't see any of us." And I thought, "That's just ridiculous," but I didn't say that to her, I just said, "It's okay. I mean, just because I can't see, why would I deprive everyone else the ability to see each other?" But it was so interesting. You have to think about it. This group leader, an expert in diversity, and yet she was questioning this. And it just shows us that even in the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion conversation, blindness is not being talked about, blind people historically have not been at the table. Well, guess what? I'm at the table now, y'all. [chuckle]

    0:22:00.5 Breyanna: I'm secretly dying over here, laughing, because I can relate to you so much. It's not nice to hear, but have that ability to relate to other people and to experience... When you talk about people coming up and grabbing you and stuff like that, it's so funny. Do you often think that people act as if saying "blind" is a bad word kind of thing?

    0:22:23.9 Amy: People totally say that blind is a bad word. I was at the airport once coming back from an NFB convention, and the... I think it was, say, the security people, they were like, "Oh, here's your other friend with the sight problem," and I said, "You mean the other blind guy?" And they said, "The other person with the sight problem." Well, I think by saying that the word blind is offensive, what you're saying is that it's bad to be blind. I was raised Jewish. I don't think that's an offensive word, and I think people who find it offensive, they might have something their conscious or unconsciously against Jewish people. Do you think it's offensive to call someone tall? Do you think it's offensive to call someone whatever their ethnicity is, whether you're Hispanic or white? No, they're just descriptions. So another big debate is between people-first language and identity-first language. So, in the wider disability community, there are people who believe in people-first language, that instead of saying "a disabled person," you should say, "a person who is disabled," because that way, you're putting the person first and you're saying they're not just their disability.

    0:24:20.6 Amy: Well, I think that everyone has their own experience and has the right to be referred to however they would like, but speaking only for myself here, I prefer to use what is called identity-first language. I'm a blind person. If you call me a blind person, does that make me less of a person, so you have to call me a person who is blind? So it is a matter of personal preference, but I see nothing wrong with the word blind.

    0:24:55.4 Nicole: Can you talk about some of the differences you've experienced in undergrad education versus graduate school education, either related to the education process itself or you developing over the course of that time frame?

    0:25:12.4 Amy: That's an interesting question. Undergrad versus grad school. [chuckle] You know, it's funny because I went right from undergrad, graduating right in a pandemic, went to grad school. It all kind of felt like the same thing to me, but I think with grad school, I actually found it better than undergrad, because I found a cohort; cohort is basically what we call the people that came into the program at the same time as me and are leaving at the same time as me, and made some really good friends with them. And this is really the first time that I've actually been friends with people that I've been going to school with. I mean, I've had acquaintances, people that I've said hi to, but I feel like grad school was... Has been... I say "was" because I'm about to graduate, but it has been a very positive step for me into determining what it is that I wanna do. I had a lot of support, very fortunate about that. You know, it's smaller, so I knew all the people that I was going to class with. We went through the same classes, whereas with undergrad, there were a lot of people, lots and lots of people in the general psychology program, not quite as many people in the Industrial and Organizational Psychology program.

    0:26:56.2 Nicole: I really appreciate all of your honesty in the questions, and I know we're asking you tough questions today. And our hope is really to connect blind people to each other so that there's camaraderie there. Even like Brey said, she really can connect with you, and the things that you're saying are resonating.

    0:27:16.4 Amy: Yeah, and I think that...

    0:27:19.1 Nicole: Go ahead.

    0:27:23.4 Amy: And I think that's one of the great things about this podcast, and also organizations like the National Federation of the Blind, and there are other organizations too, but so that you know that you're not the only one. 'Cause a lot of times in public schools, growing up, you're the only blind kid in that school. So, it's good to meet other people and to learn about other people who are successful. I met a lot of successful blind people in the NFB; lawyers, psychologists, teachers, people... Anything, entrepreneurs, you name it. Technicians, computer scientists, vendors, and it really showed me that anything is possible and that we should expect equality.

    0:28:12.6 Nicole: One other question I had for you. We can try really hard in any organization to do what we think is best and to make the optimal situation for everybody involved, and at the same time, people's perception of that could be different. With regards to graduate school, when it was coming time for internships, do you feel like you had the same opportunities as sighted people in your class?

    0:28:42.3 Amy: That is such a good question, because I did have some experiences of... Well, let's say no one outright discriminated against me and said, "You can't do this because... " Actually, I take that back. I did have one person, I was interviewing for a consulting role, and they told me, "Well, I don't know about this, because we really need people to be able to see facial expressions of the client." Well, that didn't go anywhere. But most discrimination is not quite so blatant, most discrimination comes in the form of software that does not work with a screen reader, that's inaccessible. And I have had at pretty much every job that I've worked with, except for gothamCulture, every other company... Well, except for gothamCulture and The Sparrow where I'm currently working, they're the people who make jobs. But at every other company, I faced accessibility issues. There was one time that I was given a job and the job was very administrative and it was filing, except the filing system that they were using, were they using Google Docs? No, they were using something completely inaccessible. And so I wasn't able to do the job.

    0:30:27.0 Amy: And so they gave me a different job, because at that point, they couldn't really get rid of me, 'cause they'd hired me for the job, clearly, I was qualified but for the inaccessibility. So they gave me a different job to do, which didn't really work out quite as well. And also, I have cut myself off from certain opportunities whenever I see a job description and I see, "You need to use some software," and it's some software that I've never heard of in my life. My first question is, "Is this gonna work with JAWS?" Probably not. And in fact, Andrea knows, in the article I wrote for gothamCulture, their blog, says that 98% of websites are inaccessible, so that means that it's more likely that whatever software they're using is not going to be accessible. So I ask myself, "Do I wanna put up with that?" And so I've limited my own choices for better or for worse. But it definitely is a limitation, because it's like, "Do I want to be the pioneer? I do wanna be a pioneer, but sometimes, on my bad days, so to speak, sometimes when I'm getting down, I ask myself, "Why do I always have to be the trail blazer, the pioneer, the person to change things and make the statements? Why can't I just go get a job and make some money like everyone else?"

    0:32:29.8 Amy: But that's what we're... Us as blind people succeeding, and that is what we're striving for, for the next generation to be able to just go and get a job and not have to blaze a trail. But what I say to myself is, "You either blaze a trail or you do nothing, and you sit in your bed all day." I think we all know which is the better option, so that's why I keep blazing the trail.

    0:33:07.0 Breyanna: I just have one more question before we go. Just because we were talking about jobs and stuff like that, I know that in the visually impaired and blind community, there's a lot of debate about whether or not when you're applying for jobs and things like that, that you should... On the resume, on your application or somewhere, to make a note or something, if you're blind or legally blind or visually impaired or whatever. What do you think about that?

    0:33:32.5 Amy: So I actually learned about this. I've actually done a lot of self-discovery around this, and there is a debate because I have an opinion which has changed, but some of my closest mentors in the Federation, I'll say, but one of my closest mentors in the Federation is diametrically opposed to me. So, let me tell the story. So, about that job that I said was a filing job and used a filing system that was inaccessible. So, we had a group interview, and at the group interview, I was told, we were all told what software we were going to be using. I went home, looked up the software, and there was a webpage that says, "this software is not accessible for blind users." So then I had an individual interview with my potential supervisor, and I could have said, "Hey, the software that you're hiring me to use, or that you would be hiring me to use is not accessible, so let's work out some accommodations." But I said, "You know what? I'm qualified for this job, and I think I'm the most qualified out of this whole group here, so I'm just not gonna say anything."

    0:35:02.6 Amy: And then once they hire me, that software is not accessible, well, they can't do anything about it, can they? They have to keep me. Well, what I learned is, if your stance is, "I'm gonna put someone in a legal bind," you have to be able to back that up. I was never actually gonna sue these people, you know? And so it only created tension because then when I did get hired, my supervisor was like, "Oh, why didn't you tell me this? Why didn't you tell me the software wasn't accessible?" And you know what? Legally, it was within my legal right not to say anything. But as I said, if you're not prepared to go the legal route, if you want things to go well, if you wanna forge positive relationships, be honest from the beginning. Tell them that you're blind, because then you screen out the people who would discriminate against you. And besides, even if you decide to take some legal action against someone and you win, and I've never been in this position, but I would imagine that they're gonna resent you for the rest of your time working with them. So I personally think...

    0:36:32.0 Amy: I mean, for big class action sort of things, absolutely. But I think a lot of times, just be honest. It's not... Pick your battles. And because there's the law and then there's relationships and you wanna maintain positive, strong relationships, so I believe in telling people on the cover letter, on the resume, that I'm blind, or at least at the interview. It was interesting because during COVID, with a lot of the Zoom interviews, I could sort of hide it better than if I was walking in with a cane, in person. But you know, there's another side of it and they'll say... Guess what? You say you're blind on those resumes, you're not gonna get interviews, and maybe that's true. But I think that if you wanna find the best career for you, you don't wanna be desperate. It's like they're picking you... They're picky, but you also have to be picky as the applicant. And make sure that the organization is one that you would really wanna work for. And if they're the type to discriminate against a blind person on a résumé, are they really going to treat me with respect on the job? And that's just something to think about.

    0:38:14.5 Nicole: It's not always easy, and even the laws that are out there don't make things easy for you, and this is a tough situation to navigate. That's some amazing advice.

    0:38:24.4 Amy: And another thing I wanna just make clear is, I know this is a very hotly-debated issue, and I'm still very early in my career. I could be wrong. I don't want it to seem like I'm telling people, "This is what you should do." I'm just saying, this is the experience that I personally came to after my experience of not telling and the sort of fallout that came from that. But some people think it's in their best interest to not disclose the blindness, and I don't think that that is necessarily wrong either.

    0:39:08.4 Nicole: That's really good advice.

    0:39:13.9 Amy: Thanks. And you certainly don't have any legal obligation to disclose your blindness and you shouldn't feel pressured if someone asked you, "Well, why didn't you say anything before?" Well, I was a little bit more naive back then, two years ago. But thinking about it now, that was a completely inappropriate question for my supervisor to ask me, because legally, I didn't have to say anything. So there's always multiple sides to that, and that's still an issue that I'm wrestling with to this day, to disclose or not to disclose.

    0:39:55.1 Nicole: You've faced so many challenges through education, internships, career. Has there been an assistive device that has really been a game changer for you, that is the thing that you absolutely can't live without or that has made the most positive impact on all of these aspects of your life?

    0:40:14.1 Amy: Yeah, it's called JAWS screen reader. It's the best screen reader in the world. And should I explain what a screen reader is, or do we all know what a screen reader is?

    0:40:30.0 Nicole: You can definitely explain it 'cause we might have people listening that aren't familiar.

    0:40:33.7 Amy: Okay. So a screen reader is a program that reads the computer screen out loud and also allows me to navigate the computer using the keyboard rather than the mouse. And so this has allowed me to get... JAWS has allowed me to get through school and get through work, and just have that access to technology. And it really is an amazing screen reader. I mean, of course, I'm also working for them now as a Human Resources intern, but even before I started working for them, and you asked me that question about the best assistive device, I would have said... Or the most crucial in my life, I would say, hands down, JAWS. And also, another one, not quite as crucial, but still very important to me that I've been using lately is called Aira, A-I-R-A. Now, Aira is a program, you do have to pay for it, it does come at a price, but it's an app where you can call an agent and they are trained to give sighted assistance for things that might not be accessible. So they can log on to your computer with remote access to click a button or describe a picture, or navigate some inaccessible websites. They can also help you... "Is this shampoo or conditioner?" I've even seen people using Aira late at night.

    0:42:23.1 Amy: "What drink is this?" [chuckle] So it's a very useful tool, and there's another free alternative called Be My Eyes, but that's not comparable because those are just strangers on the internet, volunteering. Could be anyone, they get no training. They're not... But with Aira, it's their job. It's a company and they're trained. That's of course why it does cost money, but you definitely get what you pay for.

    0:42:56.0 Nicole: That's awesome. Brey, is there anything that you'd like to add?

    0:43:04.4 Breyanna: I have questions, but I try to keep them to a minimum. [chuckle] More of just for myself kind of question, how do you feel about the term "differently abled?" Because I know how I feel about that term, and I know it's like... [chuckle]

    0:43:23.5 Amy: That is such a good question. Well, I think that everyone is differently abled, all seven billion and change people in the world are differently abled, because we're all different from each other. I think it's a euphemism, and it reinforces the message that you can't say disabled or that you can't say disability because it's a bad word. Well, you know what? I can't remember where I heard this. This is definitely not... I'm definitely not the first person to say this, but the word disability is powerful, and you know why? There's no Americans With a Differently Abled Act, there's Americans with Disabilities Act. Let's own the word disabled with pride, because that is the word that has been coded in our laws and in our movement and in the disability community. And yeah, let's take the word back and make it powerful and say that it doesn't mean bad. But no, I don't like "differently abled."

    0:44:42.0 Breyanna: I love that, the idea of reclaiming it basically and empowering it and making it something that's not "a bad" word to say. Yeah, I really like that. [chuckle]

    0:44:56.2 Amy: Definitely. Yeah, and I find the same thing with... This isn't quite related, but the way people use diverse, the word diverse. You're talking about someone from a minority group and saying, "Oh, she's diverse." Well, no, diverse means a group of people that are... That all have a wide range of characteristics. If you just use it to describe one person and say, "Well, they're diverse," then you're sort of defeating the purpose, you're just othering them. So, I think differently abled is kind of along the same lines as that.

    0:45:31.2 Nicole: I can't thank you enough for your time today and sharing your story and all the things that we learned. This has been very insightful.

    0:45:40.3 Amy: Thank you so much.

    0:45:40.5 Nicole: Do you have anything I haven't asked you that you feel like everybody needs to know?

    0:45:47.5 Amy: So I think the biggest thing is, there's a lot of reasons to decide not to do something that you don't wanna... Let me start over. There are a lot of reasons to decide to not go for that big dream of yours, don't let your being blind be one of those reasons. Thank you.

    0:46:18.8 Dr. Droste: The podcast is called Through Our Eyes. Make sure to like and follow our Discord channel, Facebook, Instagram and TikTok, and let us know if you have any questions or have a topic you would like us to cover. We have tremendous things planned, and we hope you tune in again for our next podcast. This is Dr. Droste saying night to all of you. On behalf of our staff, the PRF, thank you. 

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