Becoming Paralympic Gold Medalists /w Anastasia Pagonis & Gia Pergolini 1/2 | Episode #21

Becoming Paralympic Gold Medalists /w Anastasia Pagonis & Gia Pergolini 1/2 | Ep #21

This episode dives into the extraordinary journey of two remarkable Paralympic gold medalists,  Anastasia & Gia. We uncover the awe-inspiring stories that have defined their lives and their beautiful friendship as fellow blind swimmers.

Don't miss out – hit that subscribe button and join us on a journey that's all about smashing expectations, celebrating victories, and embracing the power of the human spirit. Get ready to be inspired, motivated, and totally blown away by Anastasia Pagonis & Gia Pergolini.

• Transcript

  0:00:09.7 Gia Pergolini: Okay. Hi, I am Gia Pergolini. I am a Paralympic swimmer, I have Stargardt disease, so I'm legally blind and I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, and that's where I'm here now. But I do go to college and I swim for college at Florida International University.

  0:00:30.9 Anastasia Pagonis: Hi, I'm Anastasia Pagonis also something that Gia didn't tell you is that she's a gold medalist and a world record holder because, she didn't wanna say that. But I'm Anastasia Pagonis. I'm a Paralympic gold and bronze medalist, and I'm from Long Island, New York.

  0:00:45.0 Dr. Patrick Droste: And what is your diagnosis?

  0:00:47.6 AP: I have a few diagnosis, very lucky in the eye department. So one disease that I have that took away pretty much my central vision, it doesn't have a lot of research, it's a very big gene, but it's called ABCA4. And I have another disease which is Autoimmune retinopathy, so my body thinks that my retina is bad and attacks it very similar to the way that alopecia attacks your hair follicle and kills it.

  0:01:14.9 DD: And how old were you when you learned about that?

  0:01:19.1 AP: I was 11 when I was diagnosed with my first disorder. And then I was 14 when I was diagnosed with the autoimmune disease. I was slowly losing my vision and then at 14 I had a larger drop in my vision and then we went back to the specialist and I got rediagnosed again.

  0:01:37.0 DD: And so your main disability for the Paralympics is vision, is that right?

  0:01:42.0 AP: Yes, I have been through all three of the vision classifications in the Paralympics. So S13 is the classification that Gia is in and then there's S12, which is a bit more severe, visually impaired. And then S11, which is the most severely visually impaired. And that's my classification. And we all wear blacked out goggles to make the playing field even. And we have tappers, so that's pretty much a pull with a pool noodle and we just get a little bop on the head when we're like close to the wall.

  0:02:08.9 DD: Oh, well that's... I watched that, that concept of tappers I've never heard of or seen, but I realize that they have a very important job.

  0:02:19.8 AP: Yes.

  0:02:20.1 DD: [0:02:20.1] ____.

  0:02:20.5 AP: You wouldn't know you'd be having a head injury if you would.

  0:02:26.0 AP: Yes, I actually last November I had a concussion from that. Only trial and error, but that's how it is when you have a disability.

  0:02:34.6 DD: Alright. Thank you so much for sharing it and Gia...

  0:02:37.0 Nicole Giudici: And Gia, how old were you when you were diagnosed?

  0:02:39.9 DD: How old, were you Gia? Yeah.

  0:02:42.0 GP: Yeah. So I was diagnosed in fourth grade, so I am assuming I was eight and well, it didn't begin until I was in kindergarten when I actually had to look at a board and all the teachers were like, okay, this girl cannot see the board. And they didn't know what was wrong with me. A lot of them thought I just had a mental issue and I was faking it because it took four years to find out what it was. But all the eye doctors I went to only looked in the front of my eye. And then when I went to fourth grade, they finally looked at the back of my eye and saw that I had Stargardt disease. [laughter]

  0:03:25.1 AP: I feel like that's super common with doctors. When I was first like being diagnosed, the doctors were telling me that I had ADHD and I just wasn't concentrating and that's why I couldn't see it. So I feel like some doctors will just put like a bandaid on the situation and they're like, oh, well it's this, you don't actually have an eye problem. Which is like the same thing that happened with Gia.

  0:03:45.1 GP: Yeah. I just didn't know why it took so long. I'm like, did no one think to look in the back of my eye?

  0:03:50.1 DD: Well, I'm pretty embarrassed by that.

  0:03:52.4 GP: Oh, don't. It wasn't you.

  0:03:53.8 DD: Yeah, no, I know it wasn't. But...

  0:03:57.4 GP: Actions.

  0:04:00.1 DD: It's standard practice that, especially for a first exam that thoroughly look at the retina and optic nerve as well as the other part and the fact that somebody didn't do that is regardless of where, what their training is, that's really sad, 'cause that's where most of the images come from, the front part of the eye is just a refractory device, which means it focuses the light rays.

  0:04:19.0 GP: Yeah.

  0:04:19.3 DD: But the perception as comes you know from the retina first and then the tiny little neurons from the retina go into the optic nerve and then your brain. So I feel bad about that, but it wouldn't change the outcome it just would have help you be a little more sure about that. Could you ladies talk a little bit about the classification of visual impairment you mentioned S11 and there's S12 S13 what does that mean?

  0:04:43.4 GP: So...

  0:04:43.8 AP: Yeah.

  0:04:44.3 GP: You wanted to go for this, tell us...

  0:04:45.8 AP: I was just gonna say that you should talk about S13 'cause I feel like that's...

  0:04:48.4 GP: Oh, Okay. So I'm not a eye doctor or anything, but this is like the best way I like to explain it for people that are not familiar with it. So S13, I'm an S13, which is the best classification like has the most vision in Paralympics and...

  0:05:08.1 AP: Which is still not good vision.

  0:05:08.2 GP: Still not good vision, but it's still like the best out of the S12 and S11. So like I said, I'm an S13, so I like to say those are more for the legally blind people and then S12 has, I feel like they're more blinds, like very, very little vision, but is on the verge of blindness. And then S11 is fully blind, but some of them, like Tas says, does have light perception or can see shadows more than others so they all wear blackout goggles when they compete, so it's an even playing field.

  0:05:49.3 AP: I would explain it pretty similarly where S13 is pretty much like legally blind, visually impaired and then S12, from my protocol, S12 starts once you hit 2600, which you're educated. So you know what 2600 is 'cause when I got classed down to an S12, I was reading the chart at around 2700 and then it goes back down once you start seeing shapes, shadows, and light to S11, which is the classification that I'm in now.

  0:06:20.2 DD: Now I noticed that in the competition I think, Tas, you came in with a person walking with you.

  0:06:28.5 AP: Yes, I...

  0:06:30.3 DD: And I didn't see that with Gia, I saw Gia just walk right up to her lane.

  0:06:35.5 AP: Yeah, I would fall in the pool if I did that. I don't have usable vision to be able to get around by myself. And especially on a pool deck and stuff like that it's very hard for me to navigate with my cane. So I always use a sighted guide.

  0:06:48.4 DD: Very good.

  0:06:50.3 GP: Yeah, and for me, I have 2600 in my left eye in 2400 in my right eye. So I can see the blocks. The only thing and I swear it stresses me out more than the race itself is walking to the right block because I cannot see the numbers for the life of me on the side. So it's kind of a guessing game. And I'm like, "Okay." I usually look at the person that head out in front of me first to see where they're stopped and I'm like, "Okay, now I know they're using that block so this has to be my start lane."

  0:07:24.9 AP: Well, Gia is also always like the top in her heat so she's usually always in the middle.

  0:07:31.2 DD: So that's interesting. That's like a seating process, is that right?

  0:07:35.3 AP: Yes.

  0:07:36.4 DD: The faster swimmers are in the middle.

  0:07:38.3 GP: Yes.

  0:07:42.4 AP: Yes, because in able-bodied the faster swimmer has the advantage of being able to see where all their other competitors are, so that's why they put them in the middle but obviously we don't have that but they still do it the same way.

  0:07:53.6 GP: Yeah. Also I don't know if this is a myth or not but I... It's definitely embedded in my brain where if you're on the wall lane the waves from the middle from when you're swimming can throw you off or make you go slower, so they're like, "You know what? We'll put the fast people in the middle or the fastest times in the middle, so they're not affected by the waves."

  0:08:16.0 DD: I noticed that you use your hands to touch these cords or lack of a better term.

  0:08:21.2 AP: The markers?

  0:08:24.3 DD: Are those like your guidelines?

  0:08:25.9 AP: Yes, so I pretty much use that almost as my cane while I'm in the pool. If you saw my other competitors while I was swimming you might've seen that they were ping ponging across the pool so they might've been like zigzagging and hitting into the lane lines but I learned that the best way for me was every four or five strokes I will glide my fingertips across the lane line to make sure that I'm staying straight so that I kind of know where I am in the pool and then obviously when I get about one stroke from the wall I'll get that tap on my head and flip over.

  0:08:58.0 DD: Wow, we're learning so much from you tonight.

  0:09:01.0 AP: And then I think Gia has like enough vision to be able to see the T, right? At the wall or...

  0:09:07.8 GP: Yeah. I'm fortunate enough to be able to see the T on on the wall, so if you're not familiar with swimming the wall usually has a big cross to indicate the wall's there and so I'm able to see that. And I'm a backstroker, so I mostly rely on the flags to indicate where the wall is and that's usually a 50/50 whether I can see the flags or not I definitely have to have like 50 goggles in my bag with different types of coloring and shading and different... Just different types of goggles to indicate what the lighting is in the facility that we're swimming in. Because sometimes the facility can be too dark and I can't see the flags and that's when I have to bring a lighter pair of goggles to be able to see the flags or it's too bright outside and the sun is making me even more blind and I have to put on like a darker shade of glass or goggles, so that's what I usually rely on.

  0:10:09.7 AP: When we were in Tokyo in the warm-up, she can probably talk about this but in the actual competition pool in Tokyo, it's super bright obviously because of like all of the lights for like the media and everything so that everything looks crisp and nice on camera but I remember Gia was having a really hard time with how bright it was in there and I think that did [0:10:30.1] ____ something.

  0:10:31.2 GP: I was freaking out. It was the first day we got into the competition pool and I was...

  0:10:36.6 AP: Quite the mental breakdown. [laughter]

  0:10:39.0 GP: I was doing backstroke sprints just to get a feel of the pool and I hit my head on the wall and I freaked out. I mean, I've been training for this for four years and then boom like of course like the flags are gonna ruin it, so I called my coach I was like freaking out, I had like five pairs of goggles trying them on each time but fortunately, everything worked out in the end and I achieved my goal, so we we're all good.

  0:11:09.1 DD: Do you use tappers for the backstroke?

  0:11:11.5 GP: No. I do not. I probably should but I'm...

  0:11:16.4 AP: Yes, you should. [laughter]

  0:11:18.1 GP: Never thought of that, I'm not there yet and so.

  0:11:20.4 DD: So how do you know when you're getting near the end of your line?

  0:11:23.3 GP: I rely on the flags. So that's what usually backstrokers do. So flags are about five yards away from the wall and I've been doing this for a very long time so you kind of already know when you're getting close or you feel like the wall is coming up and when I see those flags I know my stroke count so I take three to four strokes and then I flip over and do a flip turn and that's how I know when the walls close because I can see the flags but sometimes yes, I should use tappers but I am very stubborn.

  0:12:06.1 DD: Well, what percentage of your fellow backstrokers use tappers?

  0:12:09.4 GP: It's...

  0:12:10.0 AP: In my classification, sorry, go ahead.

  0:12:12.3 GP: You can answer this, she uses tappers.

  0:12:15.2 AP: In her classification they don't use tappers in the classification below her, they do. So most of actually all of the S13s don't use tappers. I'm not sure if they train with tappers but in competition they don't use tappers. S12 and S11 mainly all use tappers. Yeah, S11 you have to use tappers, 'cause we're all in blackout goggles and the vision that we do have wouldn't help us with the wall. And then S12 I would say is 50/50 on using tappers, so some of them do and then some of them don't. It's a big trust thing with tappers that's for sure.

  0:12:52.5 DD: When did you young ladies begin the interest in swimming? We'll start with you, Tas.

  0:12:58.8 AP: So I was always a very active person. I was actually playing soccer and then the soccer ball started hitting me in the face too much, so my doctor actually recommended that I try a less contact sport and that's how I kind of got into swimming, and then I learned that swimming actually is a very contact sport for me. But that's how I got into it, and I honestly fell in love with it from the beginning. And then once I had that big drop in my vision, I went through a very dark time for about eight months. So I stopped swimming for that time. And then I had to learn how to swim all over again without having usable vision, and it was really hard for me but I'm glad that I did it. [laughter]

  0:13:40.4 DD: Very good. Alright, and what about you, Gia? How did you get into the swimming world?

  0:13:48.2 GP: Okay, so I have two older brothers, one's 17 years older than me and one's 15 years older than me. So they love to roughhouse me and play with me and all that. And so one of the things they would do is to throw me in the pool without any floaties. And I loved it. And it became a problem because I would jump in the pool without any floaties and I didn't know how to swim. So my mother was like, "Okay, maybe she should get into swimming or start some swimming lessons." And I loved it. I was obsessed with being underwater. I thought I was a mermaid like every little girl. And so we started out with Summer League, which is just a small little thing the neighborhoods do with young swimmers and young kids where they can get a feel of what swimming is and then I loved that. So I went to club swimming and fell in love with that. And then I quit for a year. When I was seven, I wanted to try new sports, so I did gymnastics and believe it or not, I did tennis and I was pretty good at tennis, I'm not gonna lie. I cannot play now, but when I was younger I could and then all of a sudden I was like, "You know what? I wanna go back to swimming." And I went back and haven't stopped since, so here I am now.

  0:15:16.2 DD: So do you have any additional things that you wanna accomplish in your swimming career? You're still very young.

  0:15:23.4 GP: So yes. I still wanna go to Paris and hopefully get another gold medal and possibly break my world record.

  0:15:32.5 AP: Yes.

  0:15:33.9 GP: And just swim for my college. Like I said, I swim for FIU Florida Internationals. Go Panthers. But for...

  0:15:40.2 AP: I had mentioned that that is a D1 school and she's the only disabled person on that team. So that's...

  0:15:46.5 DD: Oh my. Yeah.

  0:15:47.4 AP: Pretty freaking cool.

  0:15:49.0 GP: So I love them like a family, so I just wanna swim with them and swim out throughout my college career and possibly go to NCAAs one day, which is kind of the, I don't know how to explain it, the big swim meet of all college swimming. So possibly go to that and then after college, just see what happens after that. But as of right now, go to Paris and swim for my college.

  0:16:20.6 DD: So when is Paris?

  0:16:22.5 GP: Paris is next year, 2024. I can't believe it's already next year. Oh, my goodness. But yeah, it's next year in August.

  0:16:33.5 DD: And what year are you in college?

  0:16:35.8 GP: I'm going to be a sophomore, so my second year in college.

  0:16:39.1 DD: Oh, so you're young? Now...

  0:16:40.8 GP: Yeah.

  0:16:42.1 DD: What about you, Tas? Where are you education-wise?

  0:16:46.0 AP: I'm currently not in college, I dropped out in March. I was being bullied and it just wasn't working well for my disability at all. And I have a lot of other things that worked out really well for me. So I'm just really thankful for that. And I'm able to right now focus on, I just had major shoulder surgery, so I'm currently not in the pool but hoping to take it day by day and see where that takes me. But I am hoping to compete in Paris 2024 and hopefully get another gold medal. But yeah, that's my plan right now. And I do a lot with social media and breaking down the stereotypes that people have for people who are visually impaired and blind.

  0:17:26.7 DD: Well, I'm really glad you brought that up because you're not the only person that's dropped out of college for different reasons. And Brey, and Shelby, and Brandon are all college graduates and Brey, do you have any questions, Brey, for either of these ladies, particularly Gia. I'm interested in the bullying thing, can you tell us a little bit about the bullying?

  0:17:48.6 AP: Yeah.

  0:17:49.0 DD: We haven't heard too much about that. How were you bullied? And Brey, can you interpret this please?

  0:17:56.1 GP: Jealousy, jealousy is a disease people. [laughter]

  0:18:01.4 AP: Yeah. So I was swimming on my college team and also going to school there and they were extremely uninclusive, I felt like I was a burden all the time and it was something that actually my coach and teammates had told me that I was burdening them and it was just something that wasn't working well for me. I had recently lost my vision for me, pretty recently, I don't know braille and I'm not great with technology yet and I was trying for months to try and get a reduced course load so that I didn't have to do all 12 credits because at the time I just wasn't able to handle that due to the fact that I don't know braille, I'm like, "I don't understand these things." I'm at a first grade level in braille, so it was something that was really hard for me, I ended up getting the reduced course load, which was great, but my teammates and stuff, they just were not helpful, they would leave me places and when I was relying on sighted guides and just making me feel like an extreme burden.

  0:19:00.9 AP: My coach didn't really take my disability that seriously, I don't know what he was thinking, but he ended up putting someone in to tap me that has never tapped me before and I ended up crashing into the wall and getting a severe concussion, which was not fun and that was my breaking point for that team and I just needed to leave that situation for my mental health. There were girls that were stealing things out of my locker thinking that I wouldn't see it and just like a lot of little things that it just wasn't a good experience for me and I'm really thankful for my job and the situation that I'm in now, and thankful that everything worked out pretty decently.

  0:19:39.3 NG: To along that line. I know you had a college coach, but I'm assuming that you have like a personal coach.

  0:19:46.8 AP: No, I actually...

  0:19:48.1 NG: No?

  0:19:48.3 AP: That man was my personal coach and I ended up leaving him due to multiple situations and I currently actually do not have a coach. It is extremely expensive to find a coach and a tapper that will work with, someone who's blind, like privately it's just something that's really hard for me. Also, I'm getting over a shoulder injury, so still kind of figuring that out.

  0:20:12.0 NG: So this is interesting. So then how has, I was gonna ask you how your coach developed you, but I mean, I don't know that that necessarily happened for you. So how did you overcome the deficiency you had in coaching to become so successful?

  0:20:27.5 AP: Well, at the time I was with a coach, so leading up to my medals and world records, I did'nt have a coach but I would like to say that it's all from me and from my family and the support, and obviously I'm the person who put in all the blood, sweat, and tears, so I think just hard work and dedication.

  0:20:45.7 Breyanna Willitt: I mean, obviously I cannot relate to being on a swim team or anything like that in school, but I lost my vision more, I guess, dramatically over the last couple years, it was actually when I turned like 21 to 24 is when it really got really bad and I ended up dropping out and I mean, I'm in basically kind of the same boat you are, like, I'm not very good at technology. I'm still learning. I can read braille. I'm not like, I can't read conjugated braille. If it's all spelled out, I can kind of do it, so like so I understand how you are.

  0:21:21.1 AP: That was fun.

  0:21:22.2 BW: I completely get how it is and it does get easier, and especially like the technology part, luckily. But Gia, like what do you use for technology and stuff like that in school?

  0:21:37.0 AP: So I'm still learning a lot, but on my phone and my computer, a lot of my work, thank God, in this new day and era, a lot of work is online and Mac and my computer have, Mac is the computer I use, but they have a lot of accessibilities for legally blind people. And so I use a lot of the zoom in feature on my computer and on my phone, which is really helpful. But if I have to take an exam or a test that's usually on paper, I have to go to the disability center and they have a huge monitor that I can put the paper under and it will change the coloring and change the font of the paper so I can circle my answer. I don't do the bubbling in because that will become a disaster and it'll look like a Christmas tree. But yeah, so I don't bubble the Scantron, I just circle it and have someone else bubble in my answers and that's pretty much it. I'm very grateful that I don't have to rely too much on buying a lot of technology for a lot of paperwork.

  0:22:57.0 NG: What advice would you both have for other visually challenged people as far as getting into sports and specifically swimming?

  0:23:06.2 GP: So, yeah, it's I'm not gonna sugarcoat, it's definitely not easy and it's gonna take a lot of hard work, especially we do have a disadvantage, but once you get over that and believe in yourself and just work through it, there's gonna be hard times and there's gonna be good times, but in the end, you're going to be so grateful that you did it. I mean, for me, it was very hard in the beginning. Like I didn't know what my purpose was in life, I didn't know what I could do because I was visually impaired and I was so young and like Tas, I was also bullied and so I didn't know and been pushed down by so many people, but through swimming and through Paralympics, I got to prove not only to myself but to others that, Hey, I am a visual impaired athlete and I can do this and I can achieve what most people can't.

  0:24:12.3 DD: I think that's extraordinary and I'm really glad that you're sharing that with our podcast community because that's kind of one of our missions here is, and everybody seems to have the vision disability, but all of the vision disabilities are from different causes. But the final common pathway is this is what I have, this is what I have to do with it, and this is how I'm gonna succeed.

  0:24:35.9 AP: Yeah.

  0:24:36.8 DD: And when our kids are young, they always tell us, nurture their nature, nurture their nature and that's probably one of the hardest things as a parent is to try to find, well, what is their nature? What is that... Is there good that they like and that they can do well and make, give them self-esteem and accomplishment? And you two ladies have obviously done that, but not everybody can be a great swimmer. Not everybody can be a great baseball player, but you're naturally gifted in area this swimming and you've made it your story and your story is very inspirational for other people. But you both came with a common thing is you had to make the plunge. You found it yourself, Gia, that it was something that you liked to do and didn't dislike. Tas had a different way about it. Her brothers threw her in the pool and she decided to take it and run.

  0:25:29.7 DD: So this is really, really extraordinary because as you know this, you're building life skills here, these life skills are gonna be your way of attacking the challenges in the future and that's one of the things that we all have to learn is, one thing that's great about sports is it does teach you life skills, and I'm just very saddened to hear that you were bullied because usually that doesn't happen when athletes respect each other and they're good teammates when there's jealousy and that's a different thing. But Tas, I just wanna encourage you to keep working, keep your swimming, but to keep looking at other ways to spread your wings, so to speak. 'cause you have a lot of gifts, she has a lot of gifts and you have a lot of gifts and your springboard is gonna be your swimming careers. But I don't think either of you have any idea what lies ahead for you so.

  0:26:33.9 AP: Thank you.

  0:26:35.7 NG: Can you guys...

  0:26:37.7 DD: You two are, I use them when I have my patience. I said, you're gonna be a rockstar. Well, you girls are rock stars.

  0:26:44.7 AP: Thank you.

  0:26:45.8 DD: So the podcast is called Through Our Eyes make sure to like and follow our Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok and let us know whether you have any questions or have a topic you would like us to cover. We have tremendous things planned and we hope you tune in again for our next podcast. This is Dr. Droste, saying, good night to all of you on behalf of our staff, the PRRF. Thank you.