The White Cane | Testimonials and History | Episode #14

Episode 14

The White Cane | Testimonials and History

This week's episode is about the history of the white cane for the visually impaired. Shelby, who uses the cane every day, will talk about her experience, and Dr. Droste will talk more about its history. If you're someone who values inclusivity and accessibility, you will be blown away by the powerful insights and perspectives shared in this episode.

This episode talks about the evolution of the white cane and its significance in the blind community, as well as the challenges and triumphs that Shelby and Dr. Droste have faced in their respective journeys. 

If you're interested in learning more about the history of the white cane or just want to hear some truly inspiring personal stories, we highly recommend listening to this podcast. Trust us; it's well worth your time.

• Transcript

  00:10.7 Dr. Patrick Droste: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to, the Through Our Eyes podcast, sponsored by the Pediatric Retinal Research Foundation. In this episode, we're gonna talk about the White Cane, what it means to visually impaired people, what it means to non-visually impaired people, its beginnings, and a little bit about how it became the international figure for Lions Club International. We're also going to have input on the use of the White Cane by two different visually impaired people. Shelby was blind shortly after birth, she learned the White Cane at two years of age. Brayden experienced her blindness until much later in life, and she has a totally different view. Nicole is going to also talk to our guests about the stigma that may or may not be associated with the use of the White Cane. And Dr. Droste will talk a little bit about the history of the White Cane and its relationship to Lions Club International.

  0:01:09.2 DD: Hello, everybody. We're back and this week we're going to talk about the West Cane. I'm Dr. Patrick Droste and I have Nicole with me and also Shelby Craig.

  0:01:26.6 SC: All right. My name is Shelby Craig. You've probably seen me before on the podcast. I am totally blind, I have been all my life, and I use a White Cane every single day, ever since I was two and a half.

  0:01:42.7 DD: Now that's absolutely amazing. So that was my first question. When were you gonna start... When did you start using the cane? So that means that you were severely visually impaired from very early on.

  0:01:55.8 SC: Right.

  0:02:00.1 DD: And how did you start using the cane, you were barely able to walk at two years of age.

  0:02:03.8 SC: Right, I... Actually, it's funny, but I didn't walk... And I didn't actually walk until really, really late in life. I wasn't really walking until I was about two. As a blind person, it's often... It's... It's often very difficult to achieve certain developmental milestones because obviously, we don't have the visual perception that other people have. So a lot of people when they first learn to walk and talk, they do a lot of that stuff by watching the people around them. So obviously as a blind person, you're not gonna be able to look at the people moving their lips and try to imitate them. So when I started out, I initially had to have speech therapy as well as physical therapy in order to sort of find my legs and my voice. So, [laughter] it was definitely a journey. But yes, I've been using a white can ever since I learned how to walk, and it just progressed from there.

  0:03:11.6 DD: And how old were you when you first... Were able to speak, roughly?

  0:03:17.6 SC: I really didn't speak much when I started out, I really didn't start talking until about three years old or so three... I want to say three years old because that's when I started school and speech therapy and all that stuff.

  0:03:33.5 DD: And how many years did you take speech therapy?

  0:03:37.0 SC: Probably about... It was for quite a while, I wanna say it was about two or three years, something like that.

  0:03:50.0 DD: Well, I must say that I'm very impressed because I would never detect that you had a period of time when you're training for speech therapy, 'cause you have excellent speech and grammar, [laughter] and rhetoric in general.

  0:04:07.3 SC: Thank you. I always thought I sounded a little bit slow whenever I spoke, but...

  0:04:12.1 DD: No, [laughter] you sound fine. One other question, it's commonly known that people who have speech delays also have learning differences, particularly in reading, and I know reading is special for people with visual impairment because they need to learn braille, which is another language, and based on what your parents and teachers have told you, did you have difficulty learning braille?

  0:04:44.6 SC: I would say that because I started out as early as I did, I didn't have nearly as much trouble as someone who probably would if they had started later in life, I've been... I started learning to read at age three, and that was just the basic concepts, getting me familiar with patterns, because before you can even learn to read anything, especially when it comes to braille, you have to be able to visualize those patterns and be able to differentiate between textures from a tactile standpoint. So that was how I started out, was by learning the very basic concepts, patterns, different textures, because a lot of that comes into play when you're reading braille, you have to think, you have to be able to differentiate between whether a dot is dominant or recessed and the primary way in which that's done is through the different perceptions of texture.

  0:05:49.7 DD: Well, that brings up something very important because we have a number of patients that are not only visually challenged, but they're also neurologically challenged, particularly in the area of tactile sensitivity, touch, and fine motor movements, and it's been my experience, people with those challenges have a double task to conquer, namely, they have to deal with their visual impairment, but they also are tactically insensitive and it's difficult to them to develop good braille skills. So they have to try something else.

  0:06:24.5 Nicole: Dr. Droste?

  0:06:25.8 DD: Yes.

  0:06:26.3 Nicole: Can you give us some history on... What is the White Cane?

  0:06:30.3 DD: I would be happy to. The White Cane is really something that is one of the major projects of Lions Club International, and Lions Club International was founded in around 1914, and it was founded... I'm quite sure, in Windsor, Ontario. And Grand Rapids, our first chapter was 1919, doctor... Excuse me, Judge Leonard Verdi was one of our first presidents and later international president, and his son, Dr. David [0:07:06.9] ____ Rider is one of our premier ophthalmologists in the community today, but the Lions Club is a worldwide organization, and it has one mission, and that is to improve the quality of life of visually impaired into a less extent, the hearing impaired, their chief model was the great Helen Keller, and I think everyone may be familiar with her and what she accomplished primarily through the teaching skills of Ann Sullivan, who was her nurse last teacher, and it was all brought out very carefully and clearly in the play, musical and also a movie called, The Miracle. But the White Cane per se, was really developed and made popular by the Lions Club because that was kind of their symbol. Now, who exactly developed it? I don't know, but the Lions adopted it as one of their key insignia, so to speak, way back in the 1920s, early on, and they developed the thing called the White Cane drive, and they also developed a thing called a White Cane law...

  0:08:21.1 DD: The White Cane drive is held every year, usually the first week to May, and you can go all over the country and you'll find lions out on the streets trying to solicit money for blind and visually impaired. And we, here in Grand Rapids, are fortunate enough to be able to solicit funds and support by working with Walmart and working with Meyer, and also with the Municipality of Grand Rapids. We are out on the streets, usually the first Friday in May. And during this time, we try to teach the public about the role of lions and the White Cane law. And the White Cane law, I'm not 100% sure, but I think it came out in the Michigan legislature in 1953, and it gives the blind person right to cross the street or an intersection by putting their cane out in front and cars need to stop. Now, in today's age, with crosswalks and so on, it's not that much of an entity, and I'm not really sure if someone put a White Cane out, people would know what to do.

  0:09:39.5 DD: I'm talking about the drivers. However, the cane is still the universal sign of a person with visual impairment, and it's a rallying point for the Lions, not only if you get money for the White Cane, but also for their other missions, like in Grand Rapids, we... Our whole role was visually impaired children, getting glasses for them, Grand Rapids public schools worked really hard with us to set up a program with local optical providers so that no visually impaired child in Grand Rapids or West Michigan would not have impaired good quality glasses. So in a nutshell, I think that's kind of the history of the White Cane, its importance and its significance to the Lions international.

  0:10:34.2 Nicole: As a sighted person, this sounds like an amazing tool for those that are visually impaired, I'd love to hear your perspective, Dr. Droste and Shelby, is it as widely accepted by visually impaired people as it could or should be, or is there a stigma around using the White Cane or a cane?

  0:10:55.8 DD: Shelby, I will certainly let you try to answer that.

  0:11:01.3 SC: Okay, so the first thing that I would like to say to blind and sighted people is the correct terminology to use, because a cane is called a cane, and a lot of people call it a stick, but it is definitely not a stick because sticks fall out of trees. And while canes are made of trees, they have a very different purpose from sticks, so I can't tell you how many times I've heard people call it a stick. And it's interesting because actually, different parts of the White Cane serve different purposes. A lot of times, there is a strip of red tape around the cane that is used to indicate to oncoming traffic, "Hey, there's a blind person here, watch out and don't hit them." So that's very useful. The other thing that I have come across is that a lot of times, blind people tend to use two different types of canes, actually, there are multiple types, but the two biggest types that I have seen are the Ambutech canes which fold up, and then the long straight canes that are just really, really tall. I personally find it more difficult to use the long white straight cane and I'm not gonna go into the whole argument here, 'cause I don't want anyone to get mad at me and come bang down my door or anything.

  0:12:45.8 SC: But... [laughter] but a lot of people in the NFB are told to use the long straight canes because they tend to... Using the folding canes or anything like that is sort of seen as hiding your blindness, and I want to make the point that a lot of times using those types of canes is not necessarily always the best thing. The thing about it is, the cane should be an extension of your arm. Imagine that you're using a sword, except you are tapping it on the ground, except you're tapping it on the ground instead of using it in the air, but a lot of times using folding canes or any of those types of canes, a lot of times people use them because they're easier to store when traveling, for example, if you're on an airplane, obviously, a lot of times you're not gonna have room to put those long canes. Another thing that I don't like about those is that they tend to be very thin... They're light, but the material that's used to make them is also very thin, and a lot of times in places like high school or anything, you have a lot of kids who are trying to get where they need to go, and a lot of times people are not paying attention to where they're going, so if that cane can get stuck in a crack or between someone's feet, it can snap in two extremely easily.

  0:14:29.2 SC: So it's important that you take into consideration the type of cane that you want to use. I would recommend experimenting with several different models until you find the one that you feel the most comfortable with, because not only does it have to be an appropriate height, but it also has to be... It has to feel like it's a part of you. And obviously, you have to decide which tips you like, and the tactile of the terrain that you're navigating over, a lot of the feedback is done through texture and tactile feel. All of that is very important.

  0:15:10.6 DD: That's really very good, Shelby. I think that you made the first requirement of a cane user, namely, you embraced the cane as much as you embrace braille and other things to enhance your ability to succeed in this world, that is primarily sighted, but there are a number of visually impaired or challenged people that deny their impairment and they feel that the cane just let's lets everybody know that they're visually impaired, whereas if they just looked at them as a person, they wouldn't think they were visually impaired until they observed how they walk and negotiate stairs and so on. And a lot of times, this is the same attitude that affects that individual's ability to learn braille or the new language, which is their secret to success, later in life. So what would you say, Shelby, to someone that, let's say, was a friend of yours and had obvious visual impairment, but just felt stigmatized by having to wear the... Having to use the cane.

  0:16:19.8 SC: What is keeping them from using their cane? Because every situation is different, there are some people who feel that they might not necessarily need a cane, and I think a lot of this has to do with trying to adjust to the fact that they either don't want to admit that they have less vision than they think they do, or that they just... They don't need it. And they're okay using what they have to get around, but the thing about it is, a lot of times when you're walking around and you don't have the vision that you think you do, you're liable to get hurt. And it's very easy to walk out into a street with incoming traffic, and you're not able to see the cars that are coming and you may certainly hear them, but you might not see exactly how close they are to you, not only that, but you could trip yourself when trying to find your way to certain places. For example, you might not see curbs that you need to navigate, or you might not always be able to see where the doorways are to go into buildings and end up running into the wall instead.

  0:17:48.1 SC: I would say that the use of the cane is not only an independence factor, but the lack of a cane is also a very bad idea for your own safety, you may take out a few toes when you're first learning to use it, but it's better to do that than to be lying in a hospital bed, so I would definitely recommend the use of the cane, and that's the defense that I would use if I came across someone who was sighted and they said, "Why do you have to use that stick? Just watch where you're pointing that thing?" [laughter] I've definitely encountered that before, but I would rather be safe and protected and independent than not, so it's in everybody's best interest if you learn to use a cane.

  0:18:47.0 DD: Do you have different techniques on how you use your cane, for example, when you're negotiating the...

  0:18:53.4 SC: Yes...

  0:18:54.5 DD: Busy corridors of a college or a university or a high school as opposed to walking on the streets.

  0:19:00.9 SC: Yes, so it all depends on the type of environment that I'm in. The first one that... The first thing that I started, the first technique that I started learning was constant contact, which is basically where you have the cane in front of you and you're just trailing it back and forth trying to find where things are. And that's good for beginners, just because it gives you an idea of how far the cane needs to be in front of you, how wide do you need to swing it, how much coverage you're giving yourself. It's a very good technique to start out with. The next step up from that is two-point touch, which is what I use the most often. That is when you take the cane and you actually tap those two contact points, one on the left and one on the right. When you start with this technique, you want to make sure that you are putting your cane at the exact point where you're going to put your foot. So when your cane is in front of you, you need to put your cane on the left side when your right foot is about to step out and vice versa. A lot of times, I'll use constant contact over two-point touch, for example, when I'm trying to find a sidewalk that I need to turn on to or a hallway or if I'm looking for a certain landmark that I might miss, otherwise.

  0:20:36.4 SC: There are times when two-point touch is counter-intuitive to use and constant contact is better, but for the most part, when walking along streets, and navigating down corridors, I tend to use two-point touch. And there's also a technique that I have learned in crowded areas and in situations where it might not always be ideal to have your cane extended out so far. It's... You're basically employing the two techniques that were discussed a second ago, but the cane is closer to your body than it would be otherwise. When you are getting assistance from someone who is sighted or even someone who is blind, we employ the technique of what's called the sighted guide, and in that technique, you would have your cane in one hand in the upright position, and depending on how tall the other person is, you would either be holding their elbow or their wrist. And it all depends on how tall you are, and how tall the person is. I know that with me, I usually hold the other person's elbow, and then if the path narrows, for example, if we're going through a doorway, the other person who is sighted will put their arm behind their back and slide their hand and I will slide my hand down to their wrist so that both of us can fit through the door. So those are just a few techniques that you can incorporate when using a cane.

  0:22:08.6 DD: And who is it that teaches you these techniques or do you learn them all yourself?

  0:22:13.0 SC: Oh, I learned all of my techniques from O&M instructors. O&M stands for Orientation and Mobility, but it's so much more complicated than just learning the techniques to use a cane. It's like anything else you have to learn when to incorporate those techniques. What to be on the look out for, not just how to use the cane, but how to navigate while using the cane. And I've actually moved away from calling it Orientation and Mobility, and I started calling it Perceptual Awareness training because you have to learn to utilize everything that is in your environment, smells, feel, touch, sound. All of it is important. And that's even further true when trying to use a cane.

  0:23:09.4 Nicole: What has your biggest challenge been as an adult using a cane?

  0:23:14.6 SC: Because of how comfortable I've become with using a cane from a very early age, I would say that I don't really have many challenges as an adult, I mean, obviously, I might try to correct someone who calls it a stick instead of a cane, or I will come to my own defense when someone says, "Why do you use that stick or you could hit somebody with that if you're not careful." So I think a lot of it, it has to do with educating the general public and talking about the independence and the freedom to other blind users that comes from embracing a cane.

  0:23:55.4 Nicole: I know people think that they're being helpful, do you have any words of advice to sighted people with regards to how to act or behave around people who are using canes, meaning, I'm sure you don't want somebody to come up and just grab you and kinda help you along, but rather just leave you to how you're doing your thing with the cane.

  0:24:17.1 SC: Yeah. That is actually a very big no, no. You do not want to do that because that can actually be very disorienting for the blind person who is using the cane. The first thing for a sighted person to be aware of is that a person has a White Cane and that... And keep an eye out for reflective tape on a White Cane because obviously, you don't just wanna overlook that. It's extremely important. Obviously, you don't wanna do that. You would want to encourage people who are blind to use the cane and give them opportunities to explore if you're teaching someone to use a White Cane, sometimes in school environments, it can be good to talk with... And it can be good to talk with other students about how to use the cane. And I think it can also be a real... No pun intended, eye-opening experience, if you give an adult who is sighted a blindfold and say, "Put this on, and you are going to be using a White Cane for a few minutes and you're gonna get the full experience of what it's going to be like as a blind person."

  0:25:34.3 SC: One of my friends actually taught me a very good acronym to remember when you meet a blind person who is using either a cane or a guide dog. The acronym is SALE, and it starts with stop... The acronym is Stop, Ask, Listen, Evaluate, SALES or SALE, and it's just what... It's pretty self-explanatory, you stop and ask the person if they need help, and if they say, "No, I think I'm okay," then you would basically just observe and make sure that they look like they know where they're going. And then if they say "No, I think I could use some assistance. Can you help me to get to so and so?" That would be an excellent opportunity for the blind person to teach the sighted person the use of sighted guide. So Stop, Ask, Listen, Evaluate a very important acronym for those who are sighted and observe people using a cane. And if it still looks like they're lost later, you can always ask them again if they're sure they don't need any help. But a lot of times, if blind people say that they don't need help, it's, you can still make sure that they're okay and that they're going wherever they need to go, but just don't come up and just grab them and say, "Hey, come with me, I know how to get you to where you're going."

  0:27:07.1 DD: I think that was brought up very clearly in one of our previous podcasts with Amy Albin. She was very, very firm in her statement that that is, as you say no, and it should never be done without asking the person's permission. She kind of considered it a violation of space. The other thing, she said that when people do things for you, then you don't learn how to do them yourself, and that that is really self-defeating because you wanna learn how to do it yourself.

  0:27:42.2 Nicole: So let's start with Bray. At what age did you start using a White Cane?

  0:27:47.9 Brayden: So when I was in middle school actually, was when I had gotten my IEP, and it had been brought up the idea of starting Orientation and Mobility, O&M lessons. So I had kind of... It was one of those things where I had gone at 6:30 in the morning to school, to walk around the school with it for a little bit. And it had slowly worked up over the few years in high school when I had done it beforehand, where I would go out and my O&M instructor would actually blindfold me and be like, "Okay, we're gonna meet at the library." Obviously, after we had walked around and I was taught how to cross streets and stuff like that. But I would be blindfolded and he would be like, "Okay, meet me at the library," and stuff like that, but I actually... I never actually committed to using the cane up until probably, I would say four years ago, full-time maybe. And even then, and because I do have some remaining vision, I'm not a full-time cane user. When I'm by myself, I'm definitely a full-time cane user, but I personally rely more on human guides and stuff like that, just because, I don't know, it's easier. And it's what I'm used to, I guess. I guess after four years, I'm still not really used to full-time cane use. [laughter]

  0:29:09.9 Nicole: So in the future, as things stand now, do you think you'll become more comfortable using the can, or do you think you'll always prefer a human guide over a cane?

  0:29:16.0 Brayden: I feel like, especially, and once I'm done with college and I grow to become more independent, which I think is the biggest thing right now is I'm not super independent. So I have to get out of the mindset of... Just because I'm not by myself, if I'm with other people, it doesn't mean I can't use my cane. And ideally, once I get a job and I have to do things for myself, I feel like I will use it a lot more. And I probably should use it a lot more as it is now, but the only time I really ever use it is when I'm on campus and I have to walk around from class to class by myself. And even then I like to... I think it's more of... I use it for other people's benefit, just as more of an identification kind of thing. Because I can get around without it, but I look a little silly sometimes 'cause I have a tendency to run into doors or I'll bump my shoulder on something, or I'll bump my hip on the desk.

  0:30:12.9 Brayden: So instead of people looking at you funny, I find it's easier just to walk with the cane, and some people have the idea of being like, "Oh, she can't see, and that's why she's bumping into things," or something like that. I don't know if it is the greatest reason, [laughter] but that's one of the biggest reasons I use it. It is more for other people.

  0:30:34.9 Nicole: And it's interesting that you say that, do you feel like when you use your cane, other people are more cautious around you, or do you feel like your safety is better than when you don't use your cane?

  0:30:48.8 Brayden: I feel like... So as far as walking around by myself, I feel like having the cane, people are more aware of me, in a sense, I find that people are a lot more polite unfortunately. But people hold doors open for me a lot more, or, yeah, people like hold the elevator and just little things that you don't think about very often. Versus when I walk around without my cane, and people tend to not really take a second glance at you... You know what I mean? People aren't really holding doors open or anything like that, I do find it funny though, that as I walk around with my cane, sometimes people... Today, people are so into their phones or into things that distract them that they're not really good at paying attention to where they walk. So I actually find myself tripping a lot of people, not I mean sometimes on purpose, but most of the time not on purpose. [laughter] People just, I guess, don't see my cane, which is a little weird, it's a six-foot stick, basically. I don't understand how people miss it, but it's always fun seeing people trip over it. [laughter]

  0:31:52.2 Nicole: We were having a discussion about the stigma around the White Cane. Do you feel like there is a stigma around using it?

  0:32:01.0 Brayden: Oh, absolutely. I feel like that's why it took me so long to grow to accept the fact that I need the cane. I feel like it's more coming to the fact that you need it more than just the idea of the White Cane. It's the idea that you need... Your vision is becoming less and less to the point where it's, "Okay, and maybe I should start walking with a cane, so that way I'm not tripping over big holes in the ground or potholes or low-lying things." But, yeah, there's definitely a stigma around it, unfortunately, and I take the opportunity every time I can... Kids on campus, I think they kind of have a sense of what it is, but I'm surprised at how many people have no idea. Like what it is, I have so many people who come up to me on campus and they're like, "Oh, what's that?" So I really try to take the opportunity to tell people and then once you tell people that, "Oh, it's a cane, I'm blind," then people go to the, "Oh, well, you don't look blind," those kind of comments, and I feel like those are the comments that really... People are kinda ignorant sometimes. Unfortunately, I don't know if they are ignorant or more of just uneducated, I guess.

  0:33:20.4 Nicole: Yeah, do you, it sounds like you're saying that the stigma might be self-imposed and maybe not necessarily a true stigma from the outside. Is that a fair statement?

  0:33:28.8 Brayden: Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's me personally, it has been more of a self-struggle to accept it and stuff like that, and like I said, people are super, super nice to me at least every time I have it. And I feel like it's... And once people see it and they recognize it, I don't think they really give it a second glance. And it's kind of like a walking cane for people who have an issue with getting around and stuff, people see it, but I don't think they really try to... They make it into a big thing. You know?

  0:33:58.8 Nicole: Yep. Do you assimilate the need to use your White Cane with loss of independence?

  0:34:06.6 Brayden: In the beginning, I definitely did when I was taking O&M lessons when I was 12, 13. It was definitely one of those things where I was like, "Oh what, well I'm never gonna need it." I'm never gonna get to the point, I'm always gonna be able to do this by myself and stuff like that. And then once my vision had decreased enough to the point where it was time to start using it, I think it's hard to say because I feel it on both ends. I feel like using my cane has definitely given me a lot more independence, and I definitely feel more confident, especially when I'm walking around places by myself and I have it. I'm definitely more hesitant when I don't have it, especially when it comes to things like stairs and stuff like that. So I feel like it's true on the opposite ends. I feel there are times... Most of the time, I feel very independent with it, but at the same time, it's one of those things where I'm like, "Oh well, I guess... I guess I have to have it." And I guess, I don't know, it's so hard to think about because there are positives and negatives on my end, at least. [laughter]

  0:35:09.9 Nicole: That's a fair statement. If there's anything you could tell the world about the White Cane. What would you want everybody to know?

  0:35:16.0 Brayden: I would say that just because you see someone with a White Cane or any sort of mobility aid in general, whether it's a walking cane or anything like that. That, to look beyond the person with the mobility aid, the cane, 'cause there's more to people than just what you see. And people always say, "Don't judge a book by its cover." Even though people see the cane, and they acknowledge it, I still feel like people tiptoe around the idea of disability in general. So definitely to get to know people. And it sounds so cheesy, but it's so true.

  0:35:52.1 Nicole: I love it. Shelby, do you have any other comments about the white...

  0:35:56.1 SC: I can't really think of anything. I actually did my portion of the interview earlier, so short of what we talked about, I don't think I can think of anything else to add.

  0:36:07.4 Nicole: Awesome, and you guys did great. I think this will be awesome.

  0:36:09.8 Brayden: Shelby, have you ever thought about getting a dog like a guide dog?

  0:36:14.4 SC: I have thought about it, but I just don't feel like right now I have the space, number one, to take care of a dog. But I also wanna be in a position where I'm financially stable enough to take care of one.

  0:36:26.9 Brayden: All right.

  0:36:27.8 SC: I understand that a lot of guide dog schools pay for everything, but as of right now, it's just not feasible for me, and I always like to be prepared for emergencies.

  0:36:37.1 Brayden: Yeah, no, and I get that. So I was talking to one of my... I don't know who she is, she's like the disability liaison person about it today, and I thought it was interesting.

  0:36:48.9 Nicole: Have you considered getting a dog?

  0:36:50.5 Brayden: I don't know... No, because you're not really supposed to have other pets with them, and my dogs are so not well trained. They're so bad at begging and stuff like that, so they try to say, "You're not really supposed to have other dogs so that they don't learn bad behaviors and stuff." But, and I don't know if I could ever live with just one dog, especially 'cause I have three, so...

  0:37:17.2 Nicole: And you had a cat, right?

  0:37:18.5 Brayden: I have two cats. Yeah.

  0:37:20.2 Nicole: Yeah.

  0:37:21.9 SC: Oh, Same.

  0:37:25.3 Brayden: So, yeah, I would like one, but I think I'm just a cane girl.

  0:37:25.4 Nicole: For now.

  0:37:25.4 DD: So this has been an excellent session. Nicole, do you have anything else that you would like to mention?

  0:37:34.9 Nicole: I don't, and I think you guys did a wonderful job.

  0:37:37.1 DD: Well, I would be remiss if I didn't take this opportunity to remind our listeners that on Saturday, excuse me, Friday, May 5th to Saturday, May 6th is the annual White Cane drive. And as I said, this is a national movement, all of the Lions Clubs in the country will be having some type of promotion to their efforts to help the visually impaired, and it's headed under that concept of the White Cane drive. And so they will be out on the corners, you'll see them actually in the driver's lanes, you'll see them in front of stores, please be generous, because the Lions Club does an awful lot for the visually impaired community and for our communities in general. So we'll close for this session. Please remember, all of our sessions are recorded and can be brought up, please also remember to consider the Pediatric Retinal Research Foundation in your giving programs. And lastly, make sure to like and follow our Discord channel, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok, and let us know if you have any questions or if you have a topic you would like us to cover. Thank you very much.

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